Straight Pride Parade-Boston

[justjess]

And I keep telling you that nothing predates the Bible...

Why do you think that those things are universal? Could it be because..
For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them.
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:14-15‬ ‭

The Bible is how old Lisa? The world is how old Lisa? Plenty predates the Bible.

 

[Lisa]

The Bible is how old Lisa? The world is how old Lisa? Plenty predates the Bible.

Nothing predates God

 

[justjess]

God =/= the Bible. Sorry.

The people who wrote those very first laws thousands and thousands of years ago were just as convinced that THEIR god was THE god, every bit as convinced as you are.

 

[Lisa]

God =/= the Bible. Sorry.

The people who wrote those very first laws thousands and thousands of years ago were just as convinced that THEIR god was THE god, every bit as convinced as you are.

Again...
For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them.
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:14-15‬ ‭

 

[justjess]

Again...
For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them.
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:14-15‬ ‭

Then explain the prevalence of homosexuality in the ancient world - if everyone just KNEW it was wrong naturally without some book telling them so.

There are universal truths - I will agree with that (they typically fall under “do unto others”)- homosexuality and it’s wrongness just doesn’t happen to be one of them.

 

[Lisa]

Then explain the prevalence of homosexuality in the ancient world - if everyone just KNEW it was wrong naturally without some book telling them so.

There are universal truths - I will agree with that (they typically fall under “do unto others”)- homosexuality and it’s wrongness just doesn’t happen to be one of them.

It’s the whole free will thing. You have free will to do whatever you want..that doesn’t mean that there isn’t a punishment if you do wrong. There is a God who created this whole world and the people in it..He isn’t letting people get away with sinning against Him. He is instead wanting people to turn to Him and be saved from that punishment. Everyone has that choice.

Homosexuality is wrong because God said it is wrong and there will be a punishment for that sin, like there is a punishment for all sins. I don’t happen to think it’s a worse sin than any others, thought God does call it an abomination and He didn’t often call out a sin as an abomination to Him.

 

[DavidSon]

And Sodom's sin was selfishness, need, and pride.

What a Biblical figure thinks also doesn't factor into a secular government nor are theocracies, historically, a very good model of governance. Religious belief is not something I think should influence laws.

I don't get why you would extrapolate the meaning from a verse out of Ezekiel. We know what the term has always meant, not hard to grasp. Hey each unto their own though.

I agree about the discussion and about Western law, that's what I was saying by "off-topic". Religious minded people have a tendency to be self-centered, acting as if the world revolves around their beliefs. I'm glad there are separate forums here at VC- no need to fill every thread with our personal dreams and interpretations.

 

[Todd]

I don't get why you would extrapolate the meaning from a verse out of Ezekiel. We know what the term has always meant, not hard to grasp. Hey each unto their own though.

I agree about the discussion and about Western law, that's what I was saying by "off-topic". Religious minded people have a tendency to be self-centered, acting as if the world revolves around their beliefs. I'm glad there are separate forums here at VC- no need to fill every thread with our personal dreams and interpretations.

How is the repeating what a prophet plainly stated was the sin of Sodom, extrapolating?

You only think you know what the term "has always meant" because you have been indoctrinated to think that's what it means.

 

[Wigi]

And Sodom's sin was selfishness, need, and pride.

I wonder why parades are always about pride not confidence, happiness or something. No, be proud.

 

[Lisa]

No, be proud.

Like pride is something to be proud of...

 

[DavidSon]

How is the repeating what a prophet plainly stated was the sin of Sodom, extrapolating?

You only think you know what the term "has always meant" because you have been indoctrinated to think that's what it means.

Waah?? You ever read Genesis 19? There's no words minced... "the men of the city, both old and young, all around the people from every quarter, surrounded the house."

This is where the term originated, a city of men who wanted to gang-r*pe two angels of God. Judgement!

 

[Todd]

thought God does call it an abomination and He didn’t often call out a sin as an abomination to Him.

Another example of you english translation failing you. The word translated "abomination" here is the hebrew word toevah. That same hebrew word is used to describe the sacrifice of a blemished animal. In deuteronomy crossdressing is a toevah (incidentally, in Orthodox Jewish law, this includes women wearing pants).

Remarriage is toevah according to Deut. 24:4. Deut. 25:16, the use of unequal weights and measures is called toevah. In the book of Proverbs pride (Prov. 6:16, 16:5), evil speech (Prov. 8:7), false weights (Prov. 11:1, 20:10, 20:23), devious heartedness (Prov. 11:20), lying (Prov. 12:22, 26:25), scoffing (Prov. 24:9), justifying the wicked and defaming the righteous (Prov. 17:15) are called toevah.

And the kicker is that not eating Kosher is toevah according to the Bible also.

So @Lisa, unless you eat totally kosher, never wear pants, never lie, have never had a devious thought and have never scoffed at anything, I don't think you have much of a leg to stand on to call out homosexuality as an abomination before God.

 

[Todd]

Waah?? You ever read Genesis 19? There's no words minced... "the men of the city, both old and young, all around the people from every quarter, surrounded the house."

This is where the term originated, a city of men who wanted to gang-r*pe two angels of God. Judgement!

And you equate homosexualtiy with gang r*pe?

Ever done a word study on the heberew word you assume means r*pe?

 

[Lisa]

Another example of you english translation failing you. The word translated "abomination" here is the hebrew word toevah. That same hebrew word is used to describe the sacrifice of a blemished animal. In deuteronomy crossdressing is a toevah (incidentally, in Orthodox Jewish law, this includes women wearing pants).

Remarriage is toevah according to Deut. 24:4. Deut. 25:16, the use of unequal weights and measures is called toevah. In the book of Proverbs pride (Prov. 6:16, 16:5), evil speech (Prov. 8:7), false weights (Prov. 11:1, 20:10, 20:23), devious heartedness (Prov. 11:20), lying (Prov. 12:22, 26:25), scoffing (Prov. 24:9), justifying the wicked and defaming the righteous (Prov. 17:15) are called toevah.

And the kicker is that not eating Kosher is toevah according to the Bible also.

So @Lisa, unless you eat totally kosher, never wear pants, never lie, have never had a devious thought and have never scoffed at anything, I don't think you have much of a leg to stand on to call out homosexuality as an abomination before God.

Homosexuality is just one of many sins..but because of the big push to normalize what isn’t normal...it has become a huge deal in the world today...go figure? We are really returning to Sodom and Gomorrah very quickly it seems.

Jesus paid the price for my sins and I am no longer under the law but am saved by grace. That’s why its important for people to be saved. Jesus’ burden is light like He said it is.

 

[mecca]

Being gay does not equate to being a gang rapist.

 

[justjess]

It’s the whole free will thing. You have free will to do whatever you want..that doesn’t mean that there isn’t a punishment if you do wrong. There is a God who created this whole world and the people in it..He isn’t letting people get away with sinning against Him. He is instead wanting people to turn to Him and be saved from that punishment. Everyone has that choice.

Homosexuality is wrong because God said it is wrong and there will be a punishment for that sin, like there is a punishment for all sins. I don’t happen to think it’s a worse sin than any others, thought God does call it an abomination and He didn’t often call out a sin as an abomination to Him.

Ok.. I will try this again.

If pre Bible the laws were still based on laws written in our hearts by god - why did no laws on homosexuality exist before the Bible?

 

[Wigi]

Ok.. I will try this again.

If pre Bible the laws were still based on laws written in our hearts by god - why did no laws on homosexuality exist before the Bible?

Because mankind would be extinct thousands years ago if homosexuality was a normal thing.

 

[Lisa]

Ok.. I will try this again.

If pre Bible the laws were still based on laws written in our hearts by god - why did no laws on homosexuality exist before the Bible?

There is no pre Bible because there is no pre God.

Your conscience tells you what is right and wrong...you can’t override that easily but I think it can be overridden after time if you decide to continue in evil and then you are locked in. People know when they are doing wrong whether they understand where that comes from or not. And I believe the whole movement to make people feel bad about talking about how wrong it is so that the people doing wrong don’t have to think about what they already know...they are doing the wrong thing.

 

[justjess]

Because mankind would be extinct thousands years ago if homosexuality was a normal thing.

It was a normal thing in the ancient world. And your statement didn’t answer my question.

Why weren’t there laws forbidding it prior to the Bible? If God’s law predates the Bible and the edicts against homosexuality are part of God’s law why didn’t the code of law reflect this? Why did it accurately reflect the Ten Commandments yet stay silent on the rest you all contend is so important?

 

[justjess]

There is no pre Bible because there is no pre God.

Your conscience tells you what is right and wrong...you can’t override that easily but I think it can be overridden after time if you decide to continue in evil and then you are locked in. People know when they are doing wrong whether they understand where that comes from or not. And I believe the whole movement to make people feel bad about talking about how wrong it is so that the people doing wrong don’t have to think about what they already know...they are doing the wrong thing.

Denying that there was a world and a code of law pre Bible is just ridiculous.

I’m asking you directly if God’s law was the impetus behind the early codes of law despite Jews and the Bible not existing for another couple thousands of years why were there no laws against homosexuality until then?