Once Saved Always Saved?

TokiEl

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This is the single most known bible verse.

John 3 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.


But there is a trap here. Believe.

Today that english word simply does not correctly convey the commitment in the greek Strong's G4100 - pisteuo.



As an example that the english believe and greek pisteuo are not exactly the same...

Jude 1 5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.

It's not that they did not believe... but they disobeyed ! They were not committed to the commands of God !
 

TokiEl

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That is why i say... just believe in Jesus... is not good enough.

It's a start for sure... but one must commit to His commands !

John 14 15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments.
 

TokiEl

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Listen to what the Lord himself said and be edified...


Luke 6 46 “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?

47 Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like: 48 He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock.

49 But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great.”
 
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Is It Possible to Lose Your Salvation?


The modern grace message would tell us that, as believers in Jesus, nothing that we do (or do not do) can ever change our standing before God—even willful, persistent, unrepentant sin and unbelief. Numerous scriptures challenge that view (see, for instance, John 15:6; 1 Corinthians 15:2; 2 Timothy 2:12; and Hebrews 10:26.) But does that mean we cannot be secure in our salvation? Absolutely not!

But rather than asking if it is possible to “lose” your salvation, let’s ask the question, “Is it possible for you to walk away from God? As a follower of Jesus, do you still have a free will? Can you still make choices? If so, can you choose to deny Jesus and choose a life of sin instead?”

When looked at from this angle, it should be obvious that the answer is, “Yes, I still have a free will, and I can still make choices as a believer, so theoretically it would be possible for me to deny the Lord and abandon Him.”

You might say, “But I want to live for the Lord all the days of my life. I’m just afraid that I could mess up in some way and lose my salvation.”

Well then, let’s focus on that word “lose” for a moment. There’s a reason I prefer not to use it.

Normally, you lose something accidentally, like losing your car keys, your glasses, or a business card. “Where did I put those keys? I can’t find them anywhere.”

That is not the way things are with God and salvation. You don’t simply “lose” your salvation, as if it was as easy as that. God has promised to keep us, assuring us that nothing can separate us from His love (Rom. 8:31–39) and that no one can pluck us out of His hand (John 10:28–29). He is the Author and the Finisher of our faith (Hebrews 12:2), and He who began a good work in us will see it through to completion (Phil. 1:6).

Jesus is our Savior; we do not save ourselves. And just as we didn’t get saved by accident, we can’t lose our salvation by accident.

This means that if you want to live for the Lord, you have nothing to worry about in terms of “losing” your salvation. He will keep you, help you, empower you, guide you, correct you, and deliver you until you see Him face-to-face.

Think of it like being a passenger on a plane that is guaranteed to reach its destination overseas. Unless you choose to do something crazy and open the emergency door and jump, you will arrive at your destination safely.

It’s the exact same thing with salvation.

The “plane” you are flying in is piloted by a perfect Pilot, and there is nothing that can bring this plane down—not enemy fire, not bad weather, not anything—and you can enjoy the ride without fear of crashing. If you choose to do something crazy and walk away from the Lord—in the case of the plane analogy, open the emergency door and jump—then you choose to forfeit your salvation. But as long as you want to reach your destination and stay on the plane, you have nothing whatsoever to worry about it. In fact, you can even enjoy the ride!

You might say, “But that’s what scares me. If I have any choice in the matter, then I could be lost forever.”

The fact is, you do have a choice, and there is not a verse in the Bible that says that once we become believers, we do not have a free will in Jesus and are no longer capable of making spiritual choices. If that was the case, the entire New Testament would make no sense at all, since the Word constantly calls us to make choices as believers. But God has promised to keep you, so if you put your trust in Him rather in yourself, you have nothing to worry about.

You may be now thinking, “But the modern grace message makes me feel so much more secure, since it tells me that no matter what I do, no matter how many times I sin, even if I deny the Lord, He will not let me go.”

Perhaps it makes you feel more secure, but what you’re hearing is not true. That’s what makes the message so dangerous: It exaggerates wonderful truths about God’s love, kindness, and longsuffering, and goes beyond what Scripture says.

Why in the world would you want to take comfort by believing in something false? That would be like going to a doctor who says, “You are now cancer-free and that cancer will never come back,” only to die one year later from cancer because the doctor misled you. What kind of help is that?

Some say, “But once you have eternal life, it cannot be cut short. And once God makes you His child, you can’t cease to be His child.”

But that’s not what the Word says (which I will illustrate shortly), and it is on the Scriptures (not our logic) that we must base our beliefs, letting the Word speak for itself.

To repeat: Our Father has given us wonderful promises, and our salvation is not some flimsy thing that can be found one day and lost the next, nor is our salvation dependent on our ability to “stay saved.”

It is God who is at work in us, and He will finish what He started. He will hear your cry for help, He will have mercy on you in your weakness, and He will forgive one hundred times a day if you come to Him for cleansing. But He will not keep you against your own will, which is why the Lord gives us so many warnings in the New Testament.

"And you, who were formerly alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy and blameless and above reproach in His sight, if you continue in the faith, grounded and settled, and are not removed from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant." (Colossians 1:21–23, emphasis added)

"For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than to have known it and then turn back from the holy commandment that was delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb, “The dog returns to his own vomit,” and “the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mud.”" (2 Peter 2:20–22)

"Therefore we should be more attentive to what we have heard, lest we drift away. For if the word spoken by angels was true, and every sin and disobedience received a just recompense, how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation, which was first declared by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him?" (Hebrews 2:1–3)

"Be attentive, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, and you depart from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence firmly to the end, while it is said: “Today, if you will hear His voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”" (Hebrews 3:12-15)

The New Testament authors had no trouble issuing strong warnings to believers, sometimes putting these warnings side by side with God’s glorious promises. Both are true, and both should be taken to heart. That’s why Hebrews 12:2 can speak of Jesus as “the pioneer and perfecter of our faith” (NET) while Hebrews 12:25–29 can warn us about the dangers of refusing to obey God’s voice. In the same way, Philippians 2:12–13 put our responsibility side by side with God’s responsibility, saying, “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but so much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For God is the One working in you, both to will and to do His good pleasure.”

To help put all this in perspective, let me give you some further background. Within evangelical circles, there are three main beliefs concerning the possibility of a child of God forfeiting his or her salvation, and countless thousands of pages have been written debating the question. These are the three main views:

1. The teaching commonly known as “once saved, always saved” (OSAS) states that once you are truly saved, no matter how you live or what you do, even denying Jesus and turning your back on Him, you cannot lose your salvation. Although your sin might shorten your life or lessen your future rewards, you will still be eternally saved.

2. The teaching called “perseverance of the saints” states that a true believer will not ultimately turn away from the Lord, and therefore if you claim to be born-again and die in sin, denying the Lord, you were never truly saved.

3. The final teaching doesn’t have one specific name associated with it, but it states that a true believer can choose to apostatize, reject God’s grace, and forfeit salvation. Although we are secure in Jesus, if we ultimately reject Him, we forfeit our secure standing.

Those holding to the first view point to verses like Romans 8:28–39, which state that nothing that can separate us from God’s love, or John 10:26–29, which state that Jesus’s sheep have eternal life and no one can pluck them out of His hand.

Those holding to the second viewpoint emphasize those same passages but also point to verses such as 1 John 2:19, which states that those who left the church were never really part of it, or 1 John 3:6, which states that those who continue to live in sin have never really known the Lord.

Those holding to the third viewpoint look to verses such as Colossians 1:21–23, which state that our salvation is assured if we persevere in faith to the end, or 2 Peter 2:20–22, which state that it would be better never to have known the Lord than to know Him and then turn away from Him.

For the most part, modern grace (also called hyper-grace) teachers emphatically hold to the doctrine of “once saved, always saved” (viewpoint number 1), although some seem to hold to the doctrine of “perseverance of the saints” (viewpoint number 2) making comments such as, “It is totally impossible for a true Christian to reject Christ, since true Christians are one in spirit with Jesus. If someone claims to be a follower of Jesus and then denies Him and chooses a life of sin and rebellion, that person was never saved, no matter what they claim.” (This is a paraphrase of some common hyper-grace teachings).

Of course, there is an irony when modern grace teachers hold to views like perseverance of the saints, since it ultimately puts the emphasis back on the believer’s “performance.” In other words, “If I claim to be a believer and I’m living right then I’m saved, but if I claim to be a believer and have turned away from God, I guess I was never saved.” This is obviously the last thing intended by hyper-grace teachers, but again, it is the logical conclusion to statements like the one just quoted.

How then do we sort things out?

It’s really very simple.

God’s promises are to believers—to those who want to follow the Lord and whose lives belong to Him—not to rebels who have chosen sin and rejected His Lordship. Put another way, there is not a single promise anywhere in the Bible that God will bless us with eternal life if we ultimately reject Him and choose rebellion, and we give people false assurance when we make that claim. (In other words, viewpoint number 1 is not true.)

Find me one verse anywhere in the Bible—just one—that gives assurance of eternal life and blessing to an unrepentant rebel who is living in willful, persistent sin, denying the Lord in an ongoing, hardened way, and I will invite you to join me on national radio or TV and tell the whole world that I was wrong. Just one verse!

Without a doubt, you’ll find many verses promising mercy and forgiveness to those who turn back (thank God!) and you’ll find many verses assuring us of God’s keeping power, but note clearly that the promises are given to Jesus’s sheep—to those who know His voice and follow Him (John 10:27)—rather than to those who reject His voice and walk away from Him. In short, viewpoints number 2 or 3 could be right, but number 1 cannot.

So, on a practical level, it comes down to this: If you have put your trust in the Lord and desire to serve Him, He has given you absolute assurance that He will never leave or forsake you, that He will keep you safe to the end, and that no one and nothing can separate you from His love. Rest secure in Him! He is the Author and Finisher of your faith!

But if you believe that since you were once saved, even if you reject Him and live in unrepentant sin you are still saved, then you have deceived yourself and are in danger of falling under God’s judgment. (That’s why Jesus and Paul often warned us not to be deceived; see, for example, Matthew 24:4-5 and 1 Corinthians 6:9-10.) If you walked away from the Lord, either you were never saved or you have forfeited your salvation, so turn back to Him now, knowing that He is quick to forgive, that He loves to show mercy, and that He can restore you to Himself with life, hope, and purpose through Jesus. To repeat: The promise of eternal life is only to Jesus’s sheep, those who know His voice and follow Him.

But why would we ever want to walk away from Him? Everything we need is found in Him, and in Him alone is life—true, abundant life—so drink deeply of His incredible love. Be assured that He who began the good work in you will bring it to completion (Phil. 1:6). And if you find yourself playing games with sin and growing distant from the Lord, get sober, get serious, and turn back to the cross. The cleansing blood of Jesus will never lose its power.

https://askdrbrown.org/library/it-possible-lose-your-salvation

My last post here. Its up to to all of us if we follow the true Word of God all popular doctrines not based in the Word of God. Biblically the truth is always with the minority, never the majority. That is true in the World and also within Christendom.

Who was sheltered from the flood? Was it the majority, too busy with all of life’s activities to really hear what the crazy boat-building preacher was saying? Or was it the minority: Noah and his family who listened to the voice of the Lord? See Luke 17:26-27 and Hebrews 11:7.

Who was in the right? Was it the majority of Babylonians and Israelites, bowing before King Nebuchadnezzar’s impressive golden image? Or was it the minority: Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego who stood in faith for their precious Lord? See Daniel 3:15-28.

Friends, what does it profit if we enjoy the temporary security of community, church, and tradition, but lose eternal life by choosing to go along with the majority that disregards the truths of God’s Word? See Mark 8:36-38.

God bless.
You should stop seeking Biblical answers from Dr. Brown and READ THE BIBLE.

Don’t you see that you are mixing faith with your works regarding salvation?



1. When you understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ, THAT IS WHEN God offers the GIFT of salvation from Hell. It is by one’s own FREEWILL & with full understanding that they ask to receive the gift OR choose to deny it.
(If you read my personal testimony you will discover that I asked God to save me multiple times but I did not get saved because I did not yet UNDERSTAND the Gospel)

In order to “forfeit” (as you said) salvation, one must willingly REJECT the gift.

(God respects freewill & will not force anyone to receive salvation, which is why we must ask Him for it.)

This is what happens with the Hebrews 6 person: they understand the Gospel completely, but REFUSE the gift of salvation entirely, and become reprobates....... I have met people like this, and what surprised me about them is they ALL KNEW they were reprobates. They KNEW they had passed a threshold with God and could never be saved because they flat out rejected salvation.

They explained to me exactly what happened, and it is nearly identical to a salvation testimony, except for the end. They felt the Holy Spirit, heard & understood the Gospel, knew they were being offered the gift of salvation....BUT.....they did NOT want it. They FELL AWAY from salvation. Yes, there ARE people who do NOT want salvation, even though they understand it, but that’s another topic entirely.

Back to the topic at hand....

2. A person gets saved only ONCE, and it is a GIFT that is eternal, everlasting, FOREVER.

3. The second the person receives the gift of salvation, they are IMMEDIATELY, permanently saved. God SEALS their spirit & soul with the His Holy Spirit, which is the earnest of our inheritance, His PROMISE to that believer that they WILL be redeemed upon death & shall not go to Hell.

Ephesians 1 (KJB):
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

&

1 Corinthians 1 (KJB):
21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;

22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.


And yes, it is true that NO man can separate us from the love of Christ, and that includes YOURSELF.

Getting saved has NOTHING to do with perseverance, performance, or our walk with Christ. Our walk with Christ and the work we do does not even begin UNTIL we get saved.

Do you understand this so far??
 

TokiEl

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1. When you understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ, THAT IS WHEN God offers the GIFT of salvation from Hell. It is by one’s own FREEWILL & with full understanding that they ask to receive the gift OR choose to deny it.
(If you read my personal testimony you will discover that I asked God to save me multiple times but I did not get saved because I did not yet UNDERSTAND the Gospel)
You might think you got saved when you understood the gospel but God got tired of you constantly asking Him to get saved so He saved you just to shut you up.

This is how salvation works.

Whine nag and whine some more until you get what you want. That is how little children boss their parents around.

So you understood nothing.L0L
 

TokiEl

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Is salvation dependent on understanding the gospel ? No of course not !

Is salvation dependent on believing the gospel ? The gospel or good news is that God sent His Son to spill His blood for remission of sins to all who repent and be baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ who will receive the gift of the Holy spirit.

If you believe this... you believe the gospel or good news... you will live by it ! if you believe it.
 
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Daciple

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I have read all your words and now i know what sins you struggle with. And i'm glad to hear it's just natural minor sins.
But according to your ideology expressed on this Forum, I am in danger of going to Hell, that is literally what you say day in and day out.

You literally are saying we need to have WORKS in order to get to Heaven AND be Sinless.

What Sins do you think are not covered by Gods Grace and the Blood of Christ?

I can tell you exactly which one it is, because there is only one:

Matt 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come
.

There is 2 possible legit interpretations concerning what this means. First is that it is to give praise and honor to Satan the things which God is doing or to claim the Works of the Holy Spirit are from Satan. The other is essentially the same which is more simplified as rejecting the Gospel.

I can tell you that ALL SINS are Forgiven in Christ except rejecting the Gospel, aka believing in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. As I stated before no one goes to Hell because of their Sins, or lack of Works or anything else, they go to Hell because they reject the Blood of Jesus.

This constant clash between all of you guys and me reminds me of the clash between the Pharisees and Jesus.

Nobody likes to hear that they are pharisees but you all group together and come against me and so i find it natural to call you pharisees. And if you're not a pharisee you can take that on the chin and not get all worked up for being called a pharisee.
So as I have tried to make apparent to you over and over is that it is not US who are acting like Pharisees, it is YOU.

You want to think that because literally every single Christian on this site is trying to rebuke and correct you, that makes YOU right and US wrong and somehow THAT qualifies us as Pharisees.

What makes someone a Pharisees is their ATTITUDE and their idea of JUSTIFICATION. A Pharisees believes themselves to be BETTER than everyone else and ABOVE them. THAT is how you handle yourself, and you have been told this by almost everyone that is a Christian.

They also JUSTIFY themselves by their WORKS, which as we have all seen is exactly how you JUSTIFY yourself before men and God, while REBUKING all the Christians who are telling you the TRUTH that our JUSTIFICATION is by Faith thru Grace Alone in the Blood of Jesus Christ.

As I stated it is not US that are the Pharisees it is clearly you, and that is why I have asked over and over, of course ignored, to describe via the Bible how the Pharisees acted and Justified themselves, in hope of you seeing yourself being reflected in the Biblical Description of a Pharisees.

Other than the fact that you are clearly lying and trying to stir up contention among brothers (both Sins) I really dont care that you call me personally a Pharisees because I know the Truth about what makes someone a Pharisees. As I stated before, an attitude of being better and "More Pious" while condemning and telling others they are lower than themselves is the attitude of a Pharisees. Also Justifying themselves before God and Men by their Works or their Heritage, that is a Pharisees. I definitely dont try in anyway to Justify myself before Men or the Lord by my Works, I know my Justification comes ONLY by the Grace and Mercy of God thru Christs Work on the Cross.

I also try hard NOT to look at myself as better than others or think myself as being "More Pious" than others, am I 100% able to this all the time, no, but I definitely try and be conscious of it and try with the help of the Holy Spirit not to project that type of attitude towards others.

I know I am not a Pharisees and to be honest I have never really been called one by other Christians, however what I do see is many if not all the Christians on this site trying to rebuke you because you act just like a Pharisees does.

Its so bad, that you have literally attracted multiple Non Christians into the Thread and even they notice the distinct difference between you and all the other Christians here. Maybe try for one second to check your Pride and take to heart what literally everyone is calling you out on.

Now i've posted some youtube clips from a brethren warningthepeople in my thread who was plucked out of church.
I am not able to watch Youtube videos because 99% of the time I am on this site is during down time at Work.

I have read your other responses concerning Church and I can tell you that while some things may be right, I know without a doubt that God can, will and does lead you to TRUE Gospel Preaching Churches (501c3 or not) IF you truly Repent of your current mindset and ask Him to help you do it.

How do I know this? Because I have a testimony to this exact experience. I have been apart of weakback waterdowned non sense Churches which I am sure are the ones that you probably are speaking about, and God literally spoke to me one day during the Service and told me get up and leave.

It was in the middle of Easter Services in 2014, He told me get up now and leave, and I did. If you read my Testimony, there came a day when I truly Repented and I KNEW that I NEEDED to go back to Church and I went to one down the Street just because I KNOW that is what God commands and from there He lead me to my friend who I hadnt seen in over 6 yrs, who during that time got saved and became a Preacher. He invited me to his Church which was COMPLETELY different than the Churches I had grown up in, where the Gospel is preached in every services with the Power and Spirit and I saw my wife and child saved and many others saved in my and our sister Churches in the past 3 years.

I can tell you this, if you are Saved and the Holy Spirit is in you, He WILL lead you to a Local Church that preaches the Gospel, it is literally just whether you want to obey and go where He will lead you or not. Unless you are shut in YOU Toki need to get into a Church it is a literal Commandment of God. But you can ignore the multiple Christians who are telling you the exact same thing if you want, that is up to you...

The fact is that the church can't understand the brethren.
You have zero idea what you are talking about, Jesus Christ Bled and Died for the Church, you better think twice before trying to call out or condemn the Church!!

The Church are those who believe in Christ and have been Born Again, we are the Bride of Christ, and He died and paid for our Sins, took up our Wrath so that He could place us into the Church that He has built with Spiritual hands. You dont seem to grasp the significance of the Actual Church.

Nobody wants to hear that they are on a lesser level than another... but that's just how it is. It's as natural as life itself.
The problem is how you act, if you REALLY where "Above" people then you would NOT act like it, that is direct Scripture and Commandments from Christ Himself. You never are here to help or serve others with Grace and Love, you are ONLY here to condemn others, and to boast of your Sinlessness, and your supposed (actually incorrect) knowledge about the Bible. If you REALLY were "Above" people then this is how you would actually act:

Matt 20:25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Phil 2:3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.

A Leader doesnt tell everyone they are a Leader, a Wise man doesnt tell everyone they are a Wise man, and those who are "Above" in the Church of God, they are actually Servants who humble themselves before their brothers and sisters.

I am not saying this is easy, as I stated above I have a serious issues with Pride, and my Flesh absolutely hates this Commandment to serve others above myself, but that is our Command, and I can tell you, if you REALLY were in a position IN THE CHURCH in which you were to be a Leader then you would act completely differently. I wouldnt follow anything you have to say, simply because of how you act towards others, there is ZERO compassion, ZERO grace, ZERO love, ZERO anything that resembles the Fruits of the Spirit that pour from your Posts. I can only image what you are like in real life and I say that because being on a Website you can be much more thoughtful in your replies, all that oozes from you is Pride and Contempt in your Posts. It is hard to image that you are much different in real life...

I didn't get my knowledge and understanding given to me on a silver platter. You have no idea of the amount of time energy and dedication the Holy spirit have had me earnestly pursue truths.
Do you think we dont know because you have never shared literally ANY experience you have had concerning any of what you just mentioned?

Again you are Judged by us in the manner in which you Judge us, and you wonder why people act the way they do towards you? Heres a hint, the way people, especially Christians, treat you on here is a REFLECTION of how you treat them. If you dont like it, then IDK try to CHANGE the way you act and talk man.

I can tell you that personally I do not have the problem of literally every single Christian going off on me about how I treat them in my responses. I have had problems with some Non Christians and that is to be expected, the Gospel angers the Lost, but what I can tell you is personally if I noticed that EVERY SINGLE CONFESSED BELIEVER ON THE SITE was telling me I was a Pharisees or rebuking me day in and day out for my attitude, I would have to step back and do an evaluation of what I am saying and how I am saying it.

That of course is up to you, but you just need to remember that you are not a Martyr here, people arent attacking you, they are desperately trying to correct you. There is a difference, but I just dont know if you are open minded or open hearted enough to accept correction. Another sign of a Pharisees is they reject all admonishment continually...

And when i share some with you guys... it's unrecognized and unappreciated or responded with ridicule and insults.
Again, much of what you share is Biblically incorrect, but you clearly are not capable of accepting that you could or are wrong about literally anything, every, at all. And you are "ridiculed and insulted" because of how you treat every single person on the site. Like I said, it is a reflection of yourself, maybe you should think about that...

And that's on you. That is seriously not going to do you any good.
Kettle meet pot sir...
 

TokiEl

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But according to your ideology expressed on this Forum, I am in danger of going to Hell, that is literally what you say day in and day out.

You literally are saying we need to have WORKS in order to get to Heaven AND be Sinless.

What Sins do you think are not covered by Gods Grace and the Blood of Christ?
I am against the prosperity gospel as i am against the easy grace gospel.

I am for striving to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. And no that's not work salvationism.

I know the spilt blood of Jesus is the only thing in the world than can remove sins... and with the help of the Holy spirit we must strive to overcome sins and live holy because He is Holy.
 

Lisa

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Back up.
What do you mean it isn’t Biblical?
OSAS simply means that Once you are Saved, you are Always Saved.

It’s merely a definitive way of explaining the Biblical doctrine of Eternal Security......kind of like using “Trinity” to describe the triune nature of God.

The Bible is absolutely CLEAR that true believers ARE indeed eternally secure in salvation:

John 3:
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Jesus said in John 10:28-29:

“And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.”

Ephesians 1:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.


***Ask yourself: What does everlasting mean?....... It means it LASTS FOREVER.




To say that it doesn’t & that a person can “lose” their salvation is calling God a liar, and means you do NOT actually BELIEVE Jesus saves us.

View attachment 21571
No, I do believe Jesus saves us but I don’t think you actually took a good look at the verses that I posted.

If you really looked at them and thought about them, you could not believe in osas.

Take a look again...
1 Timothy 4:1
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.

Tell me what you think that verse is saying.
Preaching the Gospel and getting the lost saved. That is the MOST important work we can do for Christ and what He commanded us to do after His resurrection & before ascending to Heaven.

Mark 16:
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

If a person does not believe, they are not saved, nether can they be baptized with the Holy Spirit.
We don’t save anyone, the Holy Spirit draws people to God. Case in point, I once taught a Sunday school class that I thought was the worst class of my life...this actually happened twice to me. After both classes I really thought I’d better quit teaching Sunday school it was that bad. But ya know what, one kid from each class wanted to be saved. I didn’t do it, it was God.

I feel that we are so busy trying to think of the “good works” we could do that we don’t really listen to God directing us to the works He has for us. And I think that is a big difference as scripture tells us.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

And He prepares us for those works. I remember one day my church sent us to the Christian conference. They paid for me and I went. I spent 2 class times in preaching the gospel but because they paid and I was helping in children’s church, I decided I better go to something about children. So, I went to this class and was so in awe! I watched these women do their class and I thought to myself “I could never do that.”
A few months later the children’s director convince me that I would be a good Sunday school teacher and that they would pay for me to go to a class to learn how to teach the class. I waffled but I knew in my spirit that God was wanting me to do this, so I said sure, I’ll do it. And when I got to the class, it was those same women and I was going to learn how to teach Sunday school like them!!! I just kept telling all the participants in the class...I saw these guys they are so good. Me, God wanted me to learn that and not only did I learn that, I was able to do what they did. God has his plans, and we have to be open to Him.
 

Daciple

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It's not that they did not believe... but they disobeyed ! They were not committed to the commands of God !
Absolutely not, it was NOT because they disobeyed it was because they DIDNT BELIEVE in God that they were kept out of the Promise Land. Go back and read the actual account in the Old Testament:

Num 14:11 And the Lord said unto Moses, How long will this people provoke me? and how long will it be ere they believe me, for all the signs which I have shewed among them?

22 Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice;

23 Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it:

They were kept out 100% because of unbelief, go read the actual Scriptures, they were NOT disobeying God after the Golden Calf incident, they followed Moses, they were doing everything Commanded of them, however the declaration that they would die came after the 12 Spies were sent into the Promise Land and for the 10th and final time they DISBELIEVED God would take care of them so He said, enough is enough, you who dont BELIEVE will die in the Wilderness.

And ONLY 2 of the entire generation made it, Joshua and Caleb, do you know why they made it?

Numbers 13:30 And Caleb stilled the people before Moses, and said, Let us go up at once, and possess it; for we are well able to overcome it.
31 But the men that went up with him said, We be not able to go up against the people; for they are stronger than we.
32 And they brought up an evil report of the land which they had searched unto the children of Israel, saying, The land, through which we have gone to search it, is a land that eateth up the inhabitants thereof; and all the people that we saw in it are men of a great stature.
33 And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.

Numbers 14:2 And all the children of Israel murmured against Moses and against Aaron: and the whole congregation said unto them, Would God that we had died in the land of Egypt! or would God we had died in this wilderness!
3 And wherefore hath the Lord brought us unto this land, to fall by the sword, that our wives and our children should be a prey? were it not better for us to return into Egypt?
4 And they said one to another, Let us make a captain, and let us return into Egypt.
5 Then Moses and Aaron fell on their faces before all the assembly of the congregation of the children of Israel.
6 And Joshua the son of Nun, and Caleb the son of Jephunneh, which were of them that searched the land, rent their clothes:
7 And they spake unto all the company of the children of Israel, saying, The land, which we passed through to search it, is an exceeding good land.
8 If the Lord delight in us, then he will bring us into this land, and give it us; a land which floweth with milk and honey.
9 Only rebel not ye against the Lord, neither fear ye the people of the land; for they are bread for us: their defence is departed from them, and the Lord is with us: fear them not.

10 But all the congregation bade stone them with stones. And the glory of the Lord appeared in the tabernacle of the congregation before all the children of Israel.

There are the actual events that happened, spies were sent out into the Promise Land and 10 of the 12 (save Caleb and Joshua) gave an Evil Report, then they began to cry out against Moses and God. They did NOT believe that God would actually bring them into the Promise Land. They saw the Giants and had zero Faith in God that He would help them overtake the Giants and take the Land, and said YET AGAIN that God was bringing them there to die and wanted to go back to Egypt.

When Joshua and Caleb try and get them to Repent, they take up stones to KILL THEM for telling them to just believe in Faith that God will do what He said He would do. They were about to die and finally God stepped in and said that is enough, yall have forsaken me in belief 10 times, even after all the miracles I have shown and done for and before you. Since you do not BELIEVE I will give you the Promise Land, you will NOT enter the Promise Land.

ONLY the 2 that believed entered in, and that is a Representation of entering into Heaven and Eternal Life, the Works didnt matter, they DID what they were told after the Golden Calf incident, but they did NOT Believe and therefore they were kept out. Works play no role in entering into Heaven, Faith and Faith Alone by the Grace of God thru Christ is all that gets one into Heaven.

You can keep preaching your Works Based Salvation but you are wrong and it will be shown how you dont understand the Bible as you believe you do, every time you make these statements...
 

TokiEl

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Absolutely not, it was NOT because they disobeyed it was because they DIDNT BELIEVE in God that they were kept out of the Promise Land. Go back and read the actual account in the Old Testament:
Unbelief and disobedience go hand in hand like belief and obedience.

They were lacking... non committed to God.
 

JoChris

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This is the single most known bible verse.

John 3 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.


But there is a trap here. Believe.

Today that english word simply does not correctly convey the commitment in the greek Strong's G4100 - pisteuo.



As an example that the english believe and greek pisteuo are not exactly the same...

Jude 1 5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.

It's not that they did not believe... but they disobeyed ! They were not committed to the commands of God !
You are taking Jude 1:5 out of context. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jude&version=KJV

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.


Do you remember what the Israelites believed in instead? https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+32&version=KJV

They were worshipping another god entirely. Their faith was in another god.
Their lack of faith resulted in disobedience to the first and second commandment.

Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;


No faith in God RESULTS in disobedience.
Faith in God RESULTS in obedience.

You have the tail wagging the dog TokEI.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


Does good works come before faith, or faith before good works? The above proves that FAITH in Jesus that produces salvation comes first, then good works (including repentance) come after.

You need to find a good bible-loving church like mine TokEI. Pray that you find one in your area.
 

TokiEl

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You are taking Jude 1:5 out of context. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jude&version=KJV

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.


Do you remember what the Israelites believed in instead? https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+32&version=KJV

They were worshipping another god entirely. Their faith was in another god.
Their lack of faith resulted in disobedience to the first and second commandment.

Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;


No faith in God RESULTS in disobedience.
Faith in God RESULTS in obedience.

You have the tail wagging the dog TokEI.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


Does good works come before faith, or faith before good works? The above proves that FAITH in Jesus that produces salvation comes first, then good works (including repentance) come after.

You need to find a good bible-loving church like mine TokEI. Pray that you find one in your area.
I can come visit your church if i twice on sundays can make altar calls for stop sinning and holy living.

As you said faith is not just an intellectual belief but an actual obedience.

Believe and liveby.
 
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You might think you got saved when you understood the gospel but God got tired of you constantly asking Him to get saved so He saved you just to shut you up.

This is how salvation works.

Whine nag and whine some more until you get what you want. That is how little children boss their parents around.

So you understood nothing.L0L
There is something fundamentally wrong with you.

You have proven you have no interest in learning how to become saved.

I have no doubt that you are a wolf in sheeps clothing.
 

JoChris

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I can come visit your church if i twice on sundays can make altar calls for stop sinning and holy living.

As you said faith is not just an intellectual belief but an actual obedience.

Believe and liveby.
If you ever became pastor of my church, perhaps....

But seriously there are pastors out there who do preach holiness, obedience to be expected for Christians. Dr John MacArthur is one of them. These two sermons you might sort of agree with in fact.


 

Daciple

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I see a problem with your replies to me already. You have lumped what I am saying in with @phipps and apparently @TokiEl which is you lose your salvation by just one sin. I have never said that. I have said that I believe a person can lose their salvation but its by degrees and not just once, its a falling away.
So no I am not lumping you in with anyone, I understand your position, I know you dont think 1 sin causes it, but as I testified, I was completely fallen away in the aspect that I was actually indulging in Sins outright, and I was faithless towards God, so much so that I was completely against Him.

So as I have mentioned numerous times, at what point does someone actually lose it?

I definitely didnt, how much further would one have to go? Where is this supposed line at? Anything in Scripture that can lead us to know where that line is?

I do get frustrated by it, because there is one verse in particular that proves to me at least that falling away is possible but you are so busy trying to throw other verses and personal stories at it that you don’t even understand that unless you can tell me outright that its not true and I don’t think you can...it doesn’t matter what you throw at it.
Why tho do you let it frustrate you so? As I have stated I could easily say the same thing for you, I give plenty of evidence that says we can not lose Salvation, but you bring one or two verses and cling only to them with zero answers in how we interpret the other Scriptures in accordance with the idea that Losing Salvation is possible.

I dont get frustrated, I understand its a debate and I have no intention of actually changing your mind as I have explained numerous times. I am here to give the other side of the debate so those who are not convinced either way can make up their minds for themselves which way is the Truth.

So to be clear, I am not trying to get you to change your mind, you are going to believe you can Lose your Salvation, and when you make the statements or provide evidence as to why, I will say you are wrong and provide counter evidence. That is how debating works...

You would have to read it and from reading it tell me that its not true. That’s why I don’t read anything else you say, because you can’t tell me that that one verse is not true. Throwing other verses at it does not negate what that one verse says.
I can read it and tell you that your interpretation is not correct in they way you understand it, then I provide the correct interpretation of in light of the entire Context of all the Scriptures that speak about this subject. You are free to disagree, and then give your beliefs and interpretations, and round we will go, cuz that is how a debate works.

What I can tell you, is whether you accept it or not, your Position of Losing your Salvation equates to a Works Based Salvation, and Scripture is implicit that we are not and can never be Saved by any Works. Works also do not keep us Saved either. And of course that is the biggest problem I have with your belief.

Justification vs Sanctification, that is what this debate is around and sadly no one on the Losing your Salvation side ever wants to address that topic, maybe you would like to speak on it from the Losing your Salvation side...

In fact I have said like the verse in 1Timothy that the falling away is caused by deception and the doctrines of demons.
Yes I know your perspective of 1 Timothy and I have already countered that ideology multiple times. John the Apostle was in a Church of which some of the members were ANTICHRISTS, and he specifically says that they are NOT of them. That they really werent Saved and part of the True Church. So when we take that understanding and apply it to the verse you cling to, then it makes sense what is being Spoken about, especially in light of the dozens of verses that Paul writes that show that people are Saved by Grace thru Faith Alone and Forever.

There are people today who are Christians in name, who say they are Christians and that they are part of the Faith, however they are lead astray by False Teachers and False Doctrines. Is there any other Scripture that speaks about WHY these people are lead astray?

2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables
.

These people do not WANT the Truth, the Gospel Truth, they instead WANT False Teachers that tell them what they want to hear. We can clearly see this in the Modern World right now. How many False Teachers are out here?

Joel Olsteen has the largest Church in the Country possibly the World, and it is packed full of FALSE BELIEVERS who really dont know Jesus and really are not Saved. They would ALL be considered to have fallen from the Faith, or is that not how you view them? They heaped upon themselves a False Teacher, and have been lead away from the Faith, by Doctrine of Demons to believe a False Gospel.

THAT is what it is to fall away from the Faith in the Real World and in context of other Scriptures concerning this. You wont read or listen probably and that is fine, but that is the proper exegesis concerning your go to verse...

And another verse in Hebrews adds to that and I did a whole post about why I believe what I believe. I don’t know that you have read it because I can’t get past the mountain of words and the fact that no verse can trump that many verses that say you can fall away.
See you refuse to even look at any argument presented because you think your one or two verses trump the litany of verses that are need to put into CONTEXT the whole debate. So while it is redundant for you and I to speak in a manner to think we can change one anothers mind, it is wise to remember that you ought to be writing for others who are reading. If you believe your position is the Truth and mine not, then it shouldnt frustrate you to expose why mine is incorrect and yours isnt. You should do it in detail to show others why I am wrong...

There is no verse that exists that literally says that those verses don’t mean what they say they mean. That is the problem.
So the facts are, I can take one or two verse about Jesus and make Him out to be a monster, it is not very hard to do. Then I can put on my ear muffs and say it doesnt matter what other verses you bring to me, Jesus is a monster period.

That is essentially what you are doing, you pick one or two verse and then say it means this and this alone and it does not matter at all what other verses you bring up to contextualize the verse.

If that is how you want to interpret the Bible, by all means go for it, but that is not correct exegesis...

Yes, definitely in Hebrews there is a verse that tells us that it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, so ya, I think that means that the Holy Spirit is not in them.
Well as long as when you start telling people that they can Lose their Salvation, you tell them when they do they are going to Hell no matter what, because that is what that verse means, in context.

However most of the time your side refuses to tell others that not only do they believe that they can Lose their Salvation but when they do they can never come back. They say some nonsense about being backslidden and coming back, which IMO negates the entire idea of being able to Lose your Salvation...

You act like being saved as a child prevented me from sin and having sin in my life that I can’t understand sin. But I can.
No what I have said is that if you were truly saved as a Child then it is impossible for you to know the difference in how Sin affects a Lost person vs a Saved person. In otherwords you personally did not experience a time in your own life where you were sure you were Lost and were in Sin and how it felt and affected you vs having a point in time where you came to Salvation and how Sin affects you now.

As I have tried to explain, as a Lost Man, I didnt believe in Sin at all, I didnt believe the things I was doing was causing me to be separated from God. When I Sinned, I LIKED IT.

Can you personally resonate in your life of LIKING your Sins? Ask literally anyone who was Saved as an Adult and they will ALL tell you that prior to Conversion Sin did NOT affect them in the same manner it does now. They used to LIKE and ENJOY their Sins, when they got Drunk, High, had Sex, Cussed ect, it didnt bother them in the least and they went and found ENJOYMENT in it.

Now that I am Saved those things do NOT bring Enjoyment as they once did, when or if I have fallen into these Sins, I feel CONVICTED and become MISERABLE, the complete opposite of how Sin affected me prior to Conversion. Can you tell me you have that testimony and experience?

No, and I would say that is awesome that you dont!!!

God begins the good work in us and it takes our whole lives to work that sanctification in us.
Amen and what does the Bible say about that?

Phil 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Paul ASSURES us and specifically tells us that we need to be CONFIDENT of that very thing, that God WILL, not might, not could, not possibly, not only if, but WILL perform that Good Work in us until the day of Jesus Christ. THAT is called Eternal Salvation and Assurance. However YOU will now have to explain to us, why Paul doesnt mean we can be confident of that thing, that God WILL finish what He started.

We are not saved and perfect we are working out our salvation with God, sin come into our lives and we aren’t immune to it.
You think you are literally working to get Salvation? You take that verse OUT OF CONTEXT, all you have to do to see the CONTEXT of who it is that is doing the Working is read the next verse:

Phil 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure
.

So who is it that is doing the Work in those verses, you or God?

Who is really working out your Salvation, you or God?

Yes, that is how I saw it, you seemed to be happy to tells us just how low you got. I am glad that it didn’t turn out bad for you and that your wife and daughter were saved. But you see, it seemed to me that you felt like you could go off and sin like you weren’t saved because of osas. I thought it sent a wrong message not because I have preconceived notions but because it sounded like you were encouraging people to go off and sin because God will bring you back and He’ll save the family too.
However, you’re talking about it again like you are, ya, I can see that God worked good through the bad in your life and I can’t discount that.
Do you even remember WHEN you read that?

I do, you read that during an exact conversation we are having right now. We were in the middle of a different thread discussing OSAS, then you hopped into my Thread and read it.

I believe 100% that you held in your heart some kind of animosity for me just as you have shown on this Thread and then with that heart went and read my Testimony. I believe with zero doubts that you indeed read it in a preconceived way with animosity in your heart.

Wanna know why I say that? Because literally NO ONE who has ever read that or commented on it has EVER stated what you have said, all of them saw the wonderful work of God in my Life and gave Glory and Honor to Him.

And the fact of the matter is, it is your own personal feelings that people who believe they can not lose their Salvation, just go off and Sin because they know they wont lose it. That is of course an absurd thing to think and never have I ever viewed it in such a manner and I know there are ZERO truly Born Again Christians that believe in Eternal Salvation that think to themselves well screw it Ima go Sin my little heart out cuz I am Saved.

The only thing I can think of why you would take up this idea and constantly repeat it over and over is because YOU must think if YOU knew YOUR Salvation was Eternal YOU would take that Liberty and YOU would go out and willfully Sin with the exact belief that YOU can do so because YOU wont lose YOUR Salvation.

That is on you Lisa, and it astonishes me that you would read my Testimony and think something like that, but that speaks much more about you and your state of mind and heart when you read or currently read it, than anything to do with me, what I said or literally what any other human being that has ever read it has thought...

Sorry for the longer response, you said quite a bit in yours so I replied in turn...
 

Daciple

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I can come visit your church if i twice on sundays can make altar calls for stop sinning and holy living.

As you said faith is not just an intellectual belief but an actual obedience.

Believe and liveby.
Or you can dismiss your preconceived notions about Church, and put away your insane Ego and Pride and let God direct you to a Church with a Pastor that already does it. You know so you can actually follow the dozens of Scriptures that tell us to join a local Church and build and edify our brothers.

My Church preaches to stop sinning and holy living all the time, but what is preached that is infinitely more important than either of those things is the Gospel and Salvation. Which stopping sinning and holy living have little to nothing to do with seeking Souls and having them be converted.

No one can hope to stop Sinning or live Holy (which ISNT about stopping Sinning, although when become more Holy aka set apart for the Work of God, then they will Sin less) until they get Born Again.

And here we are at Justification vs Sanctification, want to actually describe them and the difference between them yet? Or still dodge the question to repeat what you have said over and over like a Parrot?
 

TokiEl

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There is something fundamentally wrong with you.

You have proven you have no interest in learning how to become saved.

I have no doubt that you are a wolf in sheeps clothing.
Salvation is not dependent on you understanding the gospel.

Salvation is the spilt blood of Jesus which blots out sins. Repentance and turning from sins and being baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ blots out our past sins and we receive the gift of the Holy spirit who will convict of sins and guide us into all truths. In this new walk with the Lord we strive to do what He told us to do.

If you don't understand this you got a problem.
 

TokiEl

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If you ever became pastor of my church, perhaps....

But seriously there are pastors out there who do preach holiness, obedience to be expected for Christians. Dr John MacArthur is one of them. These two sermons you might sort of agree with in fact.


Macarthur is an example of an esteemed minister of righteousness who thinks taking the mark of the beast is not a big deal because we got to eat.

We gotta eat church ! We gotta fill our belly gotdammit !
 
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Jesus taught his fishermen-disciples, that man rises by effort.

He didn't fill the boat with fishes after they had toiled and caught nothing. He said to them to launch out into the deep for a haul.. they had to WORK.

He then blessed their WORK with success.

Like this:

Against The Tide. - May 7

The oarsman, trusting in Me, does not lean on his oars and drift with the tide, trusting to the current.

Nay, more often - once I have shown The Way - it is against the tide you must direct all your effort. And even when difficulties come, it is by your effort that they will be surmounted. But always strength (the Force) and the Joy in the doing you can have through Me.

My fisherman-disciples did not find the fishes ready on the shore in their nets. I take man's effort and bless that. I require man's effort - he needs My blessing. This partnership it is that means success.

http://jahtruth.net/yodas.htm


It is The Way it was then and it is the way it still is, now today.

You have to WORK because that is part of the deal.

As Paul -

Philippians
2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
2:10 That at the name of the Saviour every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;
2:11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Christ Jesus [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, WORK out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
2:13 For it is God Which worketh in you both to will and to do of [His] good pleasure.
 
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