Is God competent or incompetent?

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In some ways I agree. I don't mean to make this about you, but I personally think you are well identified as a gnostic because plenty of early (2nd century) Christians, though they were later expelled from the Catholic (not necessarily Roman, just "universal") body, agreed with what is now called the "Heresiarch" Marcion that the god or God of the Old Testament and the "Father" of Jesus Christ were and are far from identical. They were known more as Marcionites than Christians. Then again, the original followers of Jesus weren't called Christians until Antioch, and, by then, St. Paul had become a predominant, vocal apostle, so it could be said that they were converts to his version of Christianity, to the "Pauline sect." As I recall having read, Marcion used the verse cited in your op to help prove his case: "... every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit." and concluded, in some ways logically enough, it seems to me, that, because the offspring of Adam and Eve are said to be born in "original sin," they must have been produced by a corrupt tree.

To me, the History of Christianity is fascinating. In terms of doctrines (and dogmas), it continuously morphed in the early decades until it finally congealed into something approaching an uneasy "orthodoxy." Tensions remain, and not just those which arose during the Protestant Reformation. Even on this board, and as it relates to early "heresies," I see those who tend toward Ebionism, a return to the observance of the Laws of Moses, including the Sabbaths, on one hand, and others, such as Marcion, on the other hand, who would be done with the Old Testament altogether. The "orthodox" remain between these two polar extremes.
Nicely done. Thanks.

On the names of the religions, I cannot prove a thing thanks to Christians burning too many primary text, but I see it as follows. Early Chrestians and Karaite Jews, both good man ideologies who focused on acquiring knowledge and wisdom, --- as compare to Christianity and their supernatural garbage god, --- were the root ideologies that became known as Gnostic Christians. They were the two main groups at that time who rejected the demiurges and superstitious supernatural nonsense.

Then as today, Gnostic Christians were the intelligentsia. I am trying to sneak into that category and hope I can mimic intelligence enough to be a good one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=rAt-PAkgqls

There have been researchers at this site who are better at research than myself and have agreed with me but the evidence, to my way of thinking, was all destroyed by the ancient Christians. Hitler used the same book burning tactics to try to keep his people stupid.

All such people are bastards of a high order. Gotta love the blood soaked Christian history. Sarc.

Regards
DL
 
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You are wrong... right off the bat! (So the rest of your argument goes out the window).

God did NOT create us as sinners.

We were told by Enoch, who was God's first prophet:

Enoch
68:14 Since they (men) were only created, so that, like the angels of heaven, they might remain righteous and pure.
68:15 Then death, which destroys every thing, would not have affected them;
68:16 But by this, THEIR KNOWLEDGE (science - 1 Tim. 5:20), THEY PERISH, and by this also its power consumes them.

We were created righteous and pure, but then we fell from it (by our own free will).

If you think this world is hell, then you would be right about that, because it is hell. But, it is not God Who makes it so...

It's US.
I am a Gnostic Christian and see all things as evolving perfection.
But hey, if you want to think your god's plan has been thrown off track by human, even with all of god's Omni powers, go ahead.

Let's see if you have the intelligence to see things differently though.

You say that we were created righteous and pure, but then we fell from it (by our own free will).

Kind of a weak and temporary righteousness wouldn't you say?

Following the theme of the O.P., you would have righteousness produce unrighteousness and that would mean that god's own righteousness could turn to evil as well. Right? Or do you have the usual double moral standard that Christians create for themselves to forgive god for what they condemn in us?

As to your free will foolishness. Could A & E have made a free will choice on any issue when they could not know if they were choosing good or evil as they had yet to take that knowledge from the tree of knowledge of all things good and evil? No.

To them, in their ignorant innocence, could not know if god was good or evil just as they could not know if the talking serpent/Satan were good or evil.

As to our fall, are you aware that in the Jewish tradition, there was no fall or Original Sin, and that they read an elevation and success for both man and god in Eden, instead of the failure for us both?

Can you explain why Christianity reversed the moral of the story?

Regards
DL
 

DevaWolf

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You are wrong... right off the bat! (So the rest of your argument goes out the window).

God did NOT create us as sinners.

We were told by Enoch, who was God's first prophet:

Enoch
68:14 Since they (men) were only created, so that, like the angels of heaven, they might remain righteous and pure.
68:15 Then death, which destroys every thing, would not have affected them;
68:16 But by this, THEIR KNOWLEDGE (science - 1 Tim. 5:20), THEY PERISH, and by this also its power consumes them.

We were created righteous and pure, but then we fell from it (by our own free will).

If you think this world is hell, then you would be right about that, because it is hell. But, it is not God Who makes it so...

It's US.

But God is all knowing? So he knew we would fall and still created us? I really keep scratching my head at that part..
 
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You are wrong... right off the bat! (So the rest of your argument goes out the window).

God did NOT create us as sinners.
I forgot this one quote.

1Peter 1:20 0 Hewas chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these lasttimes for your sake.

If god had planned to create non-sinners, then why would he create a remedy for sinners even before he created the earth or mankind?

That looks to me like he knew that his good works would go bad, which again goes against the good going to good and the evil going to evil.

BTW. You name yourself as a student and students seek knowledge. How can you be a seeker when you are an idol worshiper of your god and reject anything that is said against him?

Regards
DL
 
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I am a Gnostic Christian and see all things as evolving perfection.
But hey, if you want to think your god's plan has been thrown off track by human, even with all of god's Omni powers, go ahead.
His Plan has not been thrown off. You are just allowed to experience whatever reality it is that you wish to choose for yourself.

Let's see if you have the intelligence to see things differently though.

You say that we were created righteous and pure, but then we fell from it (by our own free will).

Kind of a weak and temporary righteousness wouldn't you say?
It's not weak.. it is just the nature of free-will.

It's the nature of not being forced to be a certain way (even if it is the right way).

It means you are given the free-will to choose... even if your choice is going to be a bad one, you are still allowed to do (choose) it.
Following the theme of the O.P., you would have righteousness produce unrighteousness and that would mean that god's own righteousness could turn to evil as well. Right? Or do you have the usual double moral standard that Christians create for themselves to forgive god for what they condemn in us?
It's not Righteousness producing unrighteousness.

It's allowing you to choose who and what you want to be.

That is also True Love, not being forced, but given the free-will to choose and experience the consequences of your choices.

Love is God.

We were sent here to learn what Love is and how to Love, so that we might then, if we chose to do so, be allowed to return to real Life again, where there will be yet more to learn.
As to your free will foolishness. Could A & E have made a free will choice on any issue when they could not know if they were choosing good or evil as they had yet to take that knowledge from the tree of knowledge of all things good and evil? No.
A & E found themselves in the position they were in because of the choices they had already made, even before the world was made.

It is the same for everyone. All of us are Adams & Eves, and are here because of all of the choices we have ever made throughout Eternal Time.

Everyone is exactly where, and who, they have earned the right to be, by all of their previous thoughts and actions throughout eternal time.
To them, in their ignorant innocence, could not know if god was good or evil just as they could not know if the talking serpent/Satan were good or evil.
They had brought that situation entirely upon themselves, by what they had chosen and done even before the Garden of Eden was created and for the very purpose that it was made. So, A & E got what they had deserved, just like each and everyone of us does and have always done.

As to our fall, are you aware that in the Jewish tradition, there was no fall or Original Sin, and that they read an elevation and success for both man and god in Eden, instead of the failure for us both?
Jesus condemned the Jewish traditions (Talmud - man made false interpretations/lies, which they use as legislation) for making the Commandments of God of none effect. So, the Jewish traditions are unworthy.

Can you explain why Christianity reversed the moral of the story?

Regards
DL
Because the organized religion known as Christianity was invented by Satan (the Serpent - Opposer of Good and father of lies) just like he also invented all of the other ones (organized religions).

Organized religions are a trap, to keep people down and from being able to learn the Truth that will set them free.

Best regards,
bible student
 

DevaWolf

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His Plan has not been thrown off. You are just allowed to experience whatever reality it is that you wish to choose for yourself.


It's not weak.. it is just the nature of free-will.

It's the nature of not being forced to be a certain way (even if it is the right way).

It means you are given the free-will to choose... even if your choice is going to be a bad one, you are still allowed to do (choose) it.

It's not Righteousness producing unrighteousness.

It's allowing you to choose who and what you want to be.

That is also True Love, not being forced, but given the free-will to choose and experience the consequences of your choices.

Love is God.

We were sent here to learn what Love is and how to Love, so that we might then, if we chose to do so, be allowed to return to real Life again, where there will be yet more to learn.

A & E found themselves in the position they were in because of the choices they had already made, even before the world was made.

It is the same for everyone. All of us are Adams & Eves, and are here because of all of the choices we have ever made throughout Eternal Time.

Everyone is exactly where, and who, they have earned the right to be, by all of their previous thoughts and actions throughout eternal time.

They had brought that situation entirely upon themselves, by what they had chosen and done even before the Garden of Eden was created and for the very purpose that it was made. So, A & E got what they had deserved, just like each and everyone of us does and have always done.


Jesus condemned the Jewish traditions (Talmud - man made false interpretations/lies, which they use as legislation) for making the Commandments of God of none effect. So, the Jewish traditions are unworthy.


Because the organized religion known as Christianity was invented by Satan (the Serpent - Opposer of Good and father of lies) just like he also invented all of the other ones (organized religions).

Organized religions are a trap, to keep people down and from being able to learn the Truth that will set them free.

Best regards,
bible student
Then where does one find the truth you preach? In another religion? You still promote the Bible.
 

elsbet

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Fallen state?

Does this sound like a fallen state?

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

How is becoming like God a fallen state?

If you are talking Yahweh, a genocidal son murderer, you might be right, but I do not think that the Jews saw it that way when they saw Eden as our place of elevation.

Why do you read this myth the less intelligent Christian way as compared to the brighter Jewish way?

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/10/20/comparative-theodicy/

‘Instead of the Fall of man (in the sense of humanity as a whole), Judaism preaches the Rise of man: and instead of Original Sin, it stresses Original Virtue, the beneficent hereditary influence of righteous ancestors upon their descendants’.

Regards
DL
I wonder what the source is for this statement, above-- 'Judaism preaches the rise of man...' The article doesn't tell us.

Can you?
 
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I forgot this one quote.

1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

If god had planned to create non-sinners, then why would he create a remedy for sinners even before he created the earth or mankind?
Because along with the gift of Free-Will, there necessarily comes the possibility of what has happened to happen?

That looks to me like he knew that his good works would go bad, which again goes against the good going to good and the evil going to evil.
It looks to me like True Love, which is something that most of the people in this world still have not been able to really grasp or come to a true understanding of, and of what it (Love) actually is, but we are given the opportunity to seek it and understanding of it, which is yet again further proof of His Love.

BTW. You name yourself as a student and students seek knowledge.
Yes.

How can you be a seeker when you are an idol worshiper of your god and reject anything that is said against him?
An idol is a false god, which is anything that is worshipped instead of worshipping the One True God Who is Love, Good and Truth.

Regards
DL
Best regards,
bible student
 
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Then where does one find the truth you preach? In another religion? You still promote the Bible.
No, it is not found in yet another religion.

You have to seek for the Truth with ALL of you heart, mind and soul (Jeremiah 29:13) using your free-will.

Jeremiah 29:13 And ye shall seek Me, and find [Me], when ye shall search for Me with ALL your heart.

Yes, the the truth is in the Bible. God does not expect us to be able to find it all on our own with no help and He did not leave us with no help or direction, and He sent us His Word (Scriptures) and has preserved them like He also promised in them.

It's not the Bible (or Koran) that is wrong (except for where people have interfered, but that which is needed remains unchanged and the errors have been corrected in JAH's King of kings' Bible, which is now the most accurate version), it is just that the organized religions that claim to be based on them are (wrong).

A Book that you can read if you seek help with this, which explains everything and about why organized religions are wrong and what the Truth is that we all need to return to, can be read/downloaded for free here:

https://bit.ly/2YoYZ8e

Peace be upon you,
bible student
 
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Then where does one find the truth you preach? In another religion? You still promote the Bible.
Have you seen this quote. It is the bible telling it's readers that if they wish to perfect their wisdom, they have to get away from the Christian dogma.

Hebrews 6 King James Version; 1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Regards
DL
 
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I wonder what the source is for this statement, above-- 'Judaism preaches the rise of man...' The article doesn't tell us.

Can you?
I have it from this link, and the fact that there is no Original sin concept in Judaism.

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/10/20/comparative-theodicy/

‘Instead of the Fall of man (in the sense of humanity as a whole), Judaism preaches the Rise of man: and instead of Original Sin, it stresses Original Virtue, the beneficent hereditary influence of righteous ancestors upon their descendants’.

It shows it's sources and I asked enough Jews who confirmed it to be satisfied that it is true.

I am also willing to debate the truth of it from the Christian scriptures to show where Christianity went wrong.

Regards
DL
 
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Hebrews
6:1 Therefore leaving the beginning of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, but of faith toward God,
6:2 Of the doctrine of [fiery] baptism, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of Eternal Judgment.
6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.
- King of kings' bible
 
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Christ cursed Judaism forever.

Matthew
21:19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever.And presently the fig tree withered away.
21:20 And when the disciples saw [it], they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!
21:21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this [which is done] to the Fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this government, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the people; it shall be done.
21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive (if ye DO God's Will and not your own).

FIG tree - Jews (Matt. 21 v 20), Christ cursing Judaism for ever in verse 19.
 
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Because along with the gift of Free-Will, there necessarily comes the possibility of what has happened to happen?
I guess I will have to give you the long form.

Eve was correct in eating of the tree of knowledge and rejecting God.

It was God's plan from the beginning to have Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit. This can be demonstrated by the fact that the bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or God damned sin.

1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

This indicates that Jesus had no choice.

If God had not intended humans to sin from the beginning, why did he build into the Creation this "solution" for sin? Why create a solution for a problem you do not anticipate?

God knew that the moment he said "don't eat from that tree," the die was cast. The eating was inevitable. Eve was merely following the plan.

This then begs the question.

What kind of God would plan and execute the murder of his own son when there was absolutely no need to?

Only an insane and immoral God. That’s who.

The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice, thus showing it‘s immorality.

One of Christianity's highest form of immorality is what they have done to women. They have denied them equality and subjugated them to men.

------------------------

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all sin by nature, then the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin. That being the case, for God to punish us for following the instincts and natures he put in us would be quite wrong.

Psalm 51:5 "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."
------------

Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil is all human generated. Evil is our responsibility.

Much has been written to explain what I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.

First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created.

Evil then is only human to human.

As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.

Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, we should all see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

-----------------------

Evolutionary theology.

Regards
DL
 

elsbet

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I have it from this link, and the fact that there is no Original sin concept in Judaism.

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/10/20/comparative-theodicy/

‘Instead of the Fall of man (in the sense of humanity as a whole), Judaism preaches the Rise of man: and instead of Original Sin, it stresses Original Virtue, the beneficent hereditary influence of righteous ancestors upon their descendants’.

It shows it's sources and I asked enough Jews who confirmed it to be satisfied that it is true.

I am also willing to debate the truth of it from the Christian scriptures to show where Christianity went wrong.

Regards
DL
I read the article and followed the link... I didn't see any sources. :/
 
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An idol is a false god, which is anything that is worshipped instead of worshipping the One True God Who is Love, Good and Truth.
So you think a genocidal and infanticidal god who always seems to kill instead of cure, even yhough Jesus said he came to cure and not kill, can is a good god. Ok.

You are not the brightest or most moral student in the class my friend. Change my mind with a good apology or argument for the goodness of genocide, and killing instead of curing, please. Just remember that you are arguing against Jesus and his views.

Regards
DL
 
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Hebrews
6:1 Therefore leaving the beginning of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, but of faith toward God,
6:2 Of the doctrine of [fiery] baptism, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of Eternal Judgment.
6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.
- King of kings' bible
How many other holy books and religions have you studied, and if perfected wisdom is not in your bible, whwre did you find it?

I found it in Gnostic Christianity but I had an open mind when I read all the various other holy books, and you, being an idol worshiper of The Word, and it's genocidal god, do not seem to have an open mind.

Regards
DL
 
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