There Should Be Peace Between Muslims and Christians

[Faker He-Man]

Jesus did not teach reincarnation...

He didn’t teach it because he didn’t need to. It was the common belief at the time.

 

[bible_student]

One thing I remember from studying English Literature was that you can use emphasis and selection to create a particular interpretation. I don't wish to be rude but your example above illustrates this well...

Yes it can and it can be done both ways. The key is looking at statements in the full context of surrounding statements, then it becomes clear which way of using emphasis is the correct one.

In any case, it doesn't change the fact that the early Christians and 'followers of "The Way" (Christ)' widely believed and taught the doctrine of reincarnation as Jesus had taught the disciples.

The Church of Rome tried to avoid anything that showed this because the teaching of perpetual "life after death" (until the Last Day comes) was undermining their wrong doctrines as well as their power over the people.

Those who understand about the spirit-being and reincarnation, as Christ teaches it, know that they don't have to be afraid of the physical death of the human body.

Matthew
10:27 What I tell you in darkness, [that] speak ye in Light: and what ye hear in the ear, [that] preach ye upon the housetops.
10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell-fire.

16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the Words (Truth) that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are Life.

 

[bible_student]

He didn’t teach it because he didn’t need to. It was the common belief at the time.

Jesus taught the disciples about the difference between spirit and body, as well as about reincarnation.
http://jahtruth.net/celtrein.htm

 

[TokiEl]

He didn’t teach it because he didn’t need to. It was the common belief at the time.

Resurrection was the common belief at the time in Israel.

Reincarnation was and is the common belief in India.

 

[Thunderian]

Thunderian said:

But there is no part of the Bible that tells believers in Jesus Christ to kill anyone, for any reason, ever.

On the contrary. There is a Pauline clause which has not only historically, but even recently been used to justify Christians taking up the sword; it was most recently cited in support of nuclear war with North Korea. And Christians have taken up the sword, repeatedly. Predominantly and at least nominally Christian countries, from England to France and on to Germany, did not become world powers by delivering roses abroad.

That's a real stretch. Trump is not a Christian, and the so-called Pauline clause is not a command to Christians. It simply affirms the authority given by God to ALL rulers, including Trump, Putin, Assad, etc.

Find me a command to Christians in the Bible that is as unequivocal as "And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush."

The truth is, Christians are commanded to be peacemakers. The battle, we are told, is the Lord's. The only violence done to unbelievers in the New Testament is done by Jesus Christ himself when he returns.

Thunderian said:

I see that verse more and more, posted out of any sort of context. I imagine that people who don't know the Bible will imagine that Jesus said it, or some other famous Bible dude, and that we are to infer that Christianity is just as bloodthirsty as Islam.

Are you saying that Jesus did not say it? As to the second part of your statement, Christianity, despite its unconvincing veneer of pacifism, might not be just as bloodthirsty as Islam, as you put it, but the verse does stand as proof that, sometime in the future, apostates and others who refuse to submit to the reign of Jesus Christ will be killed, and then with Biblical justification. I consider Christianity, at least forms of it, a sort of jihad interrupted.

The issue is that that particular quote is held up as some kind of example of a direct command given by Jesus Christ while he was here on earth. The truth is that it's a quote from a story he told. It doesn't stand as an example of a command given by Jesus Christ to anyone.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

But there is no part of the Bible that tells believers in Jesus Christ to kill anyone, for any reason, ever.

​

I see that verse more and more, posted out of any sort of context. I imagine that people who don't know the Bible will imagine that Jesus said it, or some other famous Bible dude, and that we are to infer that Christianity is just as bloodthirsty as Islam.

12 [Jesus said] A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

As verse 27 seems to be still under discussion, perhaps this illustrates why it is significant when we place "The Kingdom". For Amillennials, the Kingdom is now. I can see why misplacing the timing of this verse can lead to all kinds of error.

For Premillennial (like me and @Thunderian ) the Kingdom is yet to be established, yet lives within his subjects now. Coming into the Millennium, Jesus will reign and it is He who will judge between the sheep and the goats.

[Edit] in the case of v27 it would appear that it would be the angels who would dispatch the evildoers.

Mixing up what the Lord himself will do with what we are doing here and now leads to all kinds of confusion!

 

[Thunderian]

I wasn't saying Trump is a Christian. I was pointing to his Evangelical adviser, who presumably is, and who was quoting the verse in question as justification for nuclear war with North Korea. It's not a stretch. It's headlines. I provided the link and source.

You ask for the impossible. Excluding the Old Testament, I cannot find such a verse in question. Unlike both Judaism and Islam, Christianity is ostensibly a pacifist religion. Judaism and Islam are martial religions, and war is not forbidden -in fact, at times, it is positively enjoined.

Here you apparently agree that those who refuse to submit to the reign of Jesus Christ will, in future, be killed. That is what I have said from the start.

I didn't hold it up as that. You are arguing against a position I never held, or presented. If you want to emphasize the point for other readers, I can accept the clarification, in the interests of fairness.

It stands as an example of a command which will be given by Jesus in the future to kill those who refuse his reign.

My original point was that there is no place in the Bible where Christians are told to kill anyone. The point still stands, doesn't it?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

I wasn't saying Trump is a Christian. I was pointing to his Evangelical adviser, who presumably is, and who was quoting the verse in question as justification for nuclear war with North Korea. It's not a stretch. It's headlines. I provided the link and source.

You ask for the impossible. Excluding the Old Testament, I cannot find such a verse in question. Unlike both Judaism and Islam, Christianity is ostensibly a pacifist religion. Judaism and Islam are martial religions, and war is not forbidden -in fact, at times, it is positively enjoined.

Here you apparently agree that those who refuse to submit to the reign of Jesus Christ will, in future, be killed. That is what I have said from the start.

I didn't hold it up as that. You are arguing against a position I never held, or presented. If you want to emphasize the point for other readers, I can accept the clarification, in the interests of fairness.

It stands as an example of a command which will be given by Jesus in the future to kill those who refuse his reign.

I think Revelation 19:11 suggests that it will be the Lord himself will ultimately execute judgement. Jonathan Edwards preached "Sinners in the hands of an angry God".

Unrepentant man says that God has no right to be angry. In the Tribulation, those who take the Mark will knowingly align themselves against God. I don't mind not being the judge of others. Christianity in not pacifist in the meek and mild way it is sometimes portrayed.

God is patient and longsuffering but in the end He will judge.

 

[Serveto]

My original point was that there is no place in the Bible where Christians are told to kill anyone. The point still stands, doesn't it?

Yes, it does. I just reviewed your post, and my responses, and I see that I should not have been so quick to dismiss your point and argue to the contrary. Sorry for that. What I might better have said is that, though it is true that there is no place in the Bible (New Testament) where Christians are told to kill anyone, there is a Pauline scriptural clause which has been, and presently is, interpreted as being an allowance for Christians to take up the sword and use it.

I once read a big, thick History of Christianity, very well written by a Protestant doctor, at the end of the 1800's, and he went into great detail, providing examples aplenty, in times past when that verse, when wielded by Catholics in power and authority, was used to suppress and execute Protestants. Protestants also use it for their version of a so called "just war," which is comparable, in some respects, to the Catholic theory of the same name.

 

[bible_student]

Revelation 22:18 [Jesus said] For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Did Muhammad add to God's Word?

Are YOU adding to God's Word?

Did you get that Muhammed, by saying this, was saying to everyone that Jesus is better than he (Muhammed) was, so that there could be no doubt?

Because Muhammed (pbuh) wanted people to know it and did not want his followers to get completely the wrong idea about him and start worshiping him.

Mohammed Mustafa was born in

570 A.D. - died 632 A.D.​

​

Caliph Omar became Caliph in 634 A.D. upon the death of Caliph Abu Bakr, only two years after Mohammed's death and sixteen years before the Koran was completed. He captured Jerusalem and had the mosque built - the Mosque of Omar or Dome of the Rock.​

​

Mohammed's dad Abd Allah died before he was born; his mother Aminah died when he was six; his grand-dad Abd Al-Muttalib when he was eight. He was then looked after by his uncle.​

​

Mohammed married Khadija, who was a Roman Catholic, when he was 25 and she was 40. Her cousin was called Waraquah and was also a Roman Catholic Meccan.​

​

The most famous of Mohammed's four daughters was Fatima, after whom the Moslem conquerors named the place in Portugal where, in 1917, the young girl had three visions: the third of which the Vatican has never revealed, because it was from God and was against them and their evil ways.​

​

Mohammed was visited by Gabriel in a cave on Mt. Hira in 610 A.D. at age 40.​

​

Mohammed said, "Satan touches every son of Adam the day his mother beareth him (Revelation 12:4), save only Mary and her son (Jesus)."​

​

Mohammed fled to Medina in 622 A.D. after Khadija's death.​

​

He marched on Mecca in 630 A.D. two years before he died, and four years before Omar became Caliph.​

​

The Koran was compiled in 650 A.D.​

​

http://jahtruth.net/dates.htm

 

[JoChris]

Exactly.

IMO Islam is an authentic form of worship that most Christians have lost, and some of their resentment stems from that. The 5 core practices of ISLAM are Faith, Prayer, Charity, Fasting, and Pilgrimage. Sound familiar? Islam keeps to these disciplines every day of year- acts that westerners only theorize about.

The contrast between the cultures is stark. Look at the veil, headcovering, and DRESS of women in Muslim majority countries. The ways Christian women used to adorn themselves. Our daughters here probably wear yoga pants to Church, no joke. I think an outward showing of that type of modesty says a lot about where our heart is. I could go on and on about the media and entertainment industry, education. In dress and manners one culture represents Godliness, the other folly.

Serveto made some great points about America and the Old Testament. The US is a pagan, greco-roman republic. It's based on a separation of church and state. In the OT we have multiple Theocracies. Moses and David's kingdoms.

It's hypocritical to note the traditional laws of Islam without acknowledging the same ancient laws of the Bible peoples. In Israel was it right to murder the lawless son who wouldn't submit to the commandments? It's actually admirable that Islam is reforming and wrestling with the subject of the same ancient code "Bible" people supposedly would follow, such as killing all homosexuals and adulterers.

Christians and Islam can be civil, but not in this thread. Etagloc made a slight jab about being a fossil, but the comments to follow from Christians are mostly fanatical, hateful, lies. It's revolting. Narcissism is a terrible thing.

Davidson, if you are a Muslim how come you aren't being open about it?
If you are not are a Muslim, why can you only see the superficial positive teachings and behaviour of good, moral Muslims (who put Muhammad in his later years to shame by comparison) and none of the terrible commandments?

Please show where any of the actual statements e.g. commandments for killing apostates are lies as you claim, if you do not want to be seen as a liar yourself.

 

[JoChris]

Did you get that Muhammed, by saying this, was saying to everyone that Jesus is better than he (Muhammed) was, so that there could be no doubt?

Because Muhammed (pbuh) wanted people to know it and did not want his followers to get completely the wrong idea about him and start worshiping him.

Mohammed Mustafa was born in​

​

570 A.D. - died 632 A.D.​

​

Caliph Omar became Caliph in 634 A.D. upon the death of Caliph Abu Bakr, only two years after Mohammed's death and sixteen years before the Koran was completed. He captured Jerusalem and had the mosque built - the Mosque of Omar or Dome of the Rock.​

​

Mohammed's dad Abd Allah died before he was born; his mother Aminah died when he was six; his grand-dad Abd Al-Muttalib when he was eight. He was then looked after by his uncle.​

​

Mohammed married Khadija, who was a Roman Catholic, when he was 25 and she was 40. Her cousin was called Waraquah and was also a Roman Catholic Meccan.​

​

The most famous of Mohammed's four daughters was Fatima, after whom the Moslem conquerors named the place in Portugal where, in 1917, the young girl had three visions: the third of which the Vatican has never revealed, because it was from God and was against them and their evil ways.​

​

Mohammed was visited by Gabriel in a cave on Mt. Hira in 610 A.D. at age 40.​

​

Mohammed said, "Satan touches every son of Adam the day his mother beareth him (Revelation 12:4), save only Mary and her son (Jesus)."​

​

Mohammed fled to Medina in 622 A.D. after Khadija's death.​

​

He marched on Mecca in 630 A.D. two years before he died, and four years before Omar became Caliph.​

​

The Koran was compiled in 650 A.D.​

​

http://jahtruth.net/dates.htm

Jahtruth believer, you cannot reconcile the bible and Gnostic texts. You cannot reconcile the bible and the Qur'an.

There are only 3 options:
1. Both texts are wrong
2. The bible is correct and Qu'ran is wrong.
3. The bible is wrong and the Qu'ran is correct.

Muhammad was not an eyewitness of Jesus Christ. He was born in 6th century AD, nearly 500 years later. He contradicts eyewitnesses' accounts and dismisses/ contradicts/ distorts anything in the bible that he disagreed with his personal beliefs.

He even got visits from an angel! https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+1:8-9&version=KJV

If you were a genuine bible student you would be able to put 2 and 2 together from that extremely short passage.

 

[grateful servant]

Davidson, if you are a Muslim how come you aren't being open about it?
If you are not are a Muslim, why can you only see the superficial positive teachings and behaviour of good, moral Muslims (who put Muhammad in his later years to shame by comparison) and none of the terrible commandments?

Please show where any of the actual statements e.g. commandments for killing apostates are lies as you claim, if you do not want to be seen as a liar yourself.

So sad for you, really.

 

[JoChris]

Yes, it does. I just reviewed your post, and my responses, and I see that I should not have been so quick to dismiss your point and argue to the contrary. Sorry for that. What I might better have said is that, though it is true that there is no place in the Bible (New Testament) where Christians are told to kill anyone, there is a Pauline scriptural clause which has been, and presently is, interpreted as being an allowance for Christians to take up the sword and use it.

I once read a big, thick History of Christianity, very well written by a Protestant doctor, at the end of the 1800's, and he went into great detail, providing examples aplenty, in times past when that verse, when wielded by Catholics in power and authority, was used to suppress and execute Protestants. Protestants also use it for their version of a so called "just war," which is comparable, in some respects, to the Catholic theory of the same name.

I am very willing to admit self-proclaimed Christians in the past have done evil in God's name. I cannot think of a single case where they proved they got the clear commandment to do so from the bible itself.

Religious mania and cynical rulers manipulating the illiterate masses for crusades YES.
Christians following commandments for the church from the bible NO.

 

[JoChris]

So sad for you, really.

Quite a playground response there. Distraction tactic noted.

No Muslims here have addressed the clear commandment for Islam's death of apostates being irreconcilable with Christianity. It is part of your religion *if actually followed*.

 

[JoChris]

He didn’t teach it because he didn’t need to. It was the common belief at the time.

From other religions yes.
I cannot think of any verse from the OLD Testament that supports reincarnation.

 

[Colonel Valerio]

. The United States' demographic challenge is Hispanic/Latin rather then Islamic.

Care to enlighten me on the demographic "challenge" my country has with Latinos? I'm assuming your answer will be that they ain't white.

 

[Colonel Valerio]

I am very willing to admit self-proclaimed Christians in the past have done evil in God's name. I cannot think of a single case where they proved they got the clear commandment to do so from the bible itself.

Religious mania and cynical rulers manipulating the illiterate masses for crusades YES.
Christians following commandments for the church from the bible NO.

You don't have to go that far back, remember Eric Rudolph?

 

[JoChris]

You don't have to go that far back, remember Eric Rudolph?

No I didn't as I am not American.
I thought of more recent examples like a pastor dying from handling poisonous snakes and parents not taking children to doctors (resulting in child's death), using isolated verses out-of-context. That is religious mania. Jesus' words to the apostles were not repeated elsewhere in general letters to churches.

 

[bible_student]

Jahtruth believer, you cannot reconcile the bible and Gnostic texts. You cannot reconcile the bible and the Qur'an.

There are only 3 options:
1. Both texts are wrong
2. The bible is correct and Qu'ran is wrong.
3. The bible is wrong and the Qu'ran is correct.

4. Both the Bible and Qur'an were sent by God and are therefore correct, but it is organized religion and their evil priests (Jesus warned everyone against listening to the blind leading the blind and warned to not be misled by them - Matt. 15:14) with their complete misinterpretation and twisting of the Scriptures who are (obviously) wrong and as Jesus warned, are misleading everyone and leading those who follow them into the ditch (or Pit) with them.

Matthew 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch (or Pit).

Galatians
1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from Him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel (christianity):
1:7 Which is not another (because they "call" it christianity); but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the [True] gospel of Christ.
1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you (to be "True to The Covenant" - "Covenanters"), let him be accursed.
1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
King of kings' Bible

Muhammad was not an eyewitness of Jesus Christ. He was born in 6th century AD, nearly 500 years later. He contradicts eyewitnesses' accounts and dismisses/ contradicts/ distorts anything in the bible that he disagreed with his personal beliefs.

Extract from: "The Way home or face The Fire - By JAH"
Chapter 10 -
10:28 There are two possibilities, about the mis-understanding, concerning Jesus, because
Mohammed could neither read nor write, and he did NOT write the Koran, or read it to check that it
was correct, because he was NOT ABLE TO.
10:29 The first possibility, is that Mohammed himself did not understand what God was telling him,
because Mohammed was a simple and un-educated man, but was kind, honest and humble.
10:30 The second possibility, is that Mohammed did understand what God was telling him (which is
unlikely with the world’s level of mentality at that time), but that his students did not understand, and
wrote his message down incorrectly, and Mohammed, not being able to read, did not know.
10:31 In any case, the Koran was compiled and published after Mohammed’s death, and it is
possible, that Mohammed half-understood, and that his students worshipping him, instead of God; in
direct disobedience of God’s and Mohammed’s teaching; did the rest; probably under instructions
from Caliph Omar; to try to make Mohammed more important than Jesus. So now the Moslems do
not follow Jesus’ example, as the Koran says they should do (Sura 4:159).
10:32 The Devil’s telepathic voice (enemy-within), within the heads of Mohammed or his students
(see chapter 3), deceived them, and managed to twist this message perfectly, and Satan has exploited
this point, with great success, for hundreds of years. It has been one of his most efficient tricks, so
far, and has kept people fighting, and killing each other, ever since (in God’s name?). Just HOW
STUPID can people be? They all worship the same God (Who COMMANDS them NOT to
murder), and are murdering each other for Satan, and are using and abusing God’s name to do it.
10:33 I really find it hard, to believe that people can be THAT stupid, but I know, for a fact, that
they are.
10:34 The problem, that the Moslems have, is that, because Satan has tricked them into worshipping
Mohammed, and believing that he is the ONLY Prophet of real value, they have no direction, nor
the example, to follow, and they have been running in circles, ever since.
10:35 Jesus and Mohammed BOTH taught the DOING of God’s Will, but; without having the
example to follow; the Moslems do not know which way is forwards, and Jesus; whom they will not
accept; is THE example - “I AM The Way (home)” - that EVERYONE on Earth MUST follow,
whilst DOING God’s Will, in learning SELF-sacrifice, and becoming unselfish (Sura 4:159).
10:36 Mohammed and Jesus BOTH preached the same message, which is: that ALL organized-
religion is EVIL, and that you MUST do God’s Will, NOT your own, and that you MUST talk to
God DIRECTLY; INDIVIDUALLY; PRIVATELY and CONSTANTLY (Matt. 6:6)(Sura 7:55).
10:37 If Christ is not the Son of God - the spirit, not the man – then why is Christ coming again, and
not Mohammed, or any of the other Prophets? (Sura 43:61).
10:38 The Moslems worship Mohammed, which is totally against the Koran and Mohammed’s
teachings (Sura 3:79), even though they deny it.
10:39 The Moslems’ belief in Mohammed and the HADITH, instead of God’s Truth, in His Koran,
is totally illogical, as is their belief that Mohammed is more important than God’s Son. It is illogical,
because; if it were true; then surely God would send Mohammed again, instead of which, He is
sending Christ, AS IT SAYS IN THE KORAN (Sura 43:61). The Koran also says that Christ will
come WITHOUT RELIGION (to destroy organized-religions, and the FALSE doctrines that abuse
His name).
10:40 Just like the last time, God could not entrust such an important mission to just anyone, or to
an enlightened prisoner (Prophet). He would only give the mission to His eldest Son, whom He can
trust completely, i.e. Prince Michael/Christ (Michael the Archangel).
10:41 God Himself, through the Koran, has said that Christ will come again, JUST BEFORE the
Last-Day, as a last warning of the doom that IS COMING (Sura 43:61 & 52:1-16).
10:42 In the same way that Satan turned Jesus’ teachings into a religion, and called it Christianity, he
turned Mohammed’s teachings into yet another religion, and called it Islam.
10:43 Islam, as an organized-religion, is against the teachings of the Koran.

The only way to fully understand this, is by downloading and reading, re-reading and digesting the contents of the complete Book, by JAH.

He even got visits from an angel! https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+1:8-9&version=KJV

So did Daniel -

Daniel
8:15 And it came to pass, when I, [even] I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me like the appearance of a man.
8:16 And I heard a man's voice between [the banks of] Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this [man] to understand the vision.

9:21 Yea, whilst I [was] speaking in prayer, even the person Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.
9:22 And he informed [me], and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.

If you were a genuine bible student you would be able to put 2 and 2 together from that extremely short passage.

As above.