Red Heifer Birth Paves Way For Renewed Temple Service

[TokiEl]

Your views are deeply one sided and skewed.
I have read that nonsense on here before
You are not very insightful.
You will be locked into helping the wrong side once Prophet Jesus peace be upon him comes and sorts them out.
I pray that righteous Jews, Christians and Muslims check the wide scale corruption of the unrighteous of all paths.
I guess you will stay on my ignore.

Yes of course i do not agree with you so ignore me.

You think that a nomad in Arabia was speaking for God of Israel. L0L.

Your prophet and religion have been about war terror and plunder for over a thousand years.

 

[TokiEl]

According to what I believe all of the Jews have the opportunity to repent and believe in Christ and not worry about some stupid land mass and instead look forward to the day that they and we all inherit the New Heavens and New Earth where everything will actually be perfect! Not some 1/2 and 1/2 Perfect but not really and watch out cuz Jesus is gonna smite you if you Sin and eventually Satan is gonna ruin it and cause most of you to die and go to Hell anyways version of End Times Prophecy. You know the one you hold...

New man and new heavens and new earth... do not mean the destruction of the old man and the old heavens and the old earth.

No man this earth is not going anywhere and neither is you.

God is coming down.

And you can forget about crime because God will dwell on earth with man.

And if you become glorified as an angel you will rule God's Law with a rod of iron.

 

[DesertRose]

Our accusers always blame us for their deeds.......deception at its best.
By way of deception.
However, thankfully, there are always truth tellers in every path, like the rabbi below.

You think that a nomad in Arabia was speaking for God of Israel. L0L.

When it comes to issues of faith and truth it is always best to proceed with humbleness.

May God guide you to the truth. Ameen

 

[bible_student]

Or, what if...

...The Hidden Hand's propaganda apparatus deceptively promotes their claim of racial descent from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob/Israel, even though most of the men at the highest levels of the Hidden Hand privately know full well that they are NOT descended from Jacob/Israel. They know, and are proud of the fact, that they are descended from Esau/Edom, and they are also descended from non-Abrahamic, other lineages, and have been actively working to enslave or eliminate Jacob's true descendants for over 2,600 years.

How have the conspirators been trying to steal The Birthright and Blessing? By fraudulently creating similar conditions in order to make it appear to be the same way that Jacob "stole" it (as they would wrongfully see it) from Esau. They are publicly wearing Jacob/Israel's "clothing" and pretending to be True Israel (Matt. 7:15-20), thereby deceiving the true Israelites out of their rightful heritage, as part of their grand scheme of getting them to volunteer into bondage, in order to make them spiritually and materially destitute to the point where they willingly trade their inheritance for worldly possessions. The Edomites are not trying to deceive Isaac (who is long gone) into giving it to them, and following Divine Will, but by deceiving Israel's blinded (to their true identity) descendants. It is not for the Edomites, or even the Israelites for that matter, to decide who carries the Birthright and Blessing, it is God's right to choose.

Despite the Hidden Hand's propaganda and attempts at deception, it doesn't change the fact that 95% of all modern Jews are not true racial Israelites, they are Khazar Jews descended from Esau/Edom. The Khazar Jews, or Eastern Jews, were an ancient warrior race of Turkish (Edomite / Idumean - Esau) origin who had interbred with the Ashkenazim and converted to Judaism en masse at the end of the 8th century AD. Although basically Turkish, the Khazar state bore little resemblance to the other Turkish empires of central Eurasia. It was headed by a secluded supreme ruler of semi-religious character called a khagan - who wielded little real power - and by tribal chieftains, each known as a beg. The Khazars seem to have been more inclined to a sedentary way of life, building towns and fortresses, tilling the soil, and planting gardens and vineyards. Trade and the collection of tribute were major sources of income. They were conquered by the native Russians and the mass of Khazars remained in Russia under their own closely-knit Talmudic government. They ghettoised themselves and lived under strict Talmudic Law, segregating themselves as far as possible from their host nation, except in the areas of occupation which could be used to carry out the Talmudic edicts to profit from their host. The Ashkenazim people are descended from Japheth (Gen. 10:1-3), the eldest of Noah's three sons...

...is actually the real answer? (Not that race is what is important, but obviously, because of their claims it is obviously rather important to them)

It would then make a lot of sense, for them to be calling the Christians edomites, when it is really them who are the edomites (pretending to be "the Jews") because of them knowing the story about what happened between Jacob and Esau, regarding the Birthright.

Benjamin Freedman (who was himself a Jew) defected to warn America in the 60's and he told a similar story about most of them actually being descended from the Khazars (Idumeans) who converted to Talmudic Judaism. So, if they then became mixed with the Ashkenazim (from Japheth, which therefore would make them Japhethites, not Sem/Shemites) it would make the whole incapacitating slur of "anti-semitism" that they love to use against opponents a complete load of nonsense and a bare faced lie.

This would of course also agree perfectly, with Christ's Words in the Revelation (2:9 and 3:9).

 

[Thunderian]

The Jews are not Sacrificing in the Temple for the forgiveness of Sin. This has been done away with because Christ came to be the Final Sacrifice for Sin once and for all. I mean you know this Thunder. You will admit it in a different thread concerning those who want to bring us under the Law, but cling to these ideals when they are wrong, to support your faulty man made Theology and Eschatology.

The context of that Verse:

Lev 16:30 For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the Lord.
31 It shall be a sabbath of rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls, by a statute for ever.
32 And the priest, whom he shall anoint, and whom he shall consecrate to minister in the priest's office in his father's stead, shall make the atonement, and shall put on the linen clothes, even the holy garments:
33 And he shall make an atonement for the holy sanctuary, and he shall make an atonement for the tabernacle of the congregation, and for the altar, and he shall make an atonement for the priests, and for all the people of the congregation.

THAT is what is to be Forever according to the text but what does the New Testament say concerning this?

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

I mean I believe you not only know this, you have preached this to others, but for some reason now want to renege on it because it negates your Eschatology. The Law in which states that there will be sacrifices in the Temple for forgiveness of Sin FOREVER, has been done away with since Christ came and fulfilled it in Himself. The Scripture above details that the verses and commands in Leviticus were but a shadow but NOT the very image and they could NEVER make people perfect. It says if it could then they would have CEASED to be offered.

Then the Scriptures tells us very clearly that Jesus came and provided the Sacrifice ONCE AND FOR ALL, FOREVER, that the Law was foreshadowing and therefore the Sacrifices have and FOREVER will cease because His offering has perfected FOR EVER them that are sanctified.

This idea that Jesus will come back to rule and Earth and Re instate the Old Testament Laws, even ones for the Sacrifice of Sin is straight up demeaning the entire purpose of Christs coming. I mean you deep down know this, you know how incredibly offensive it is for someone anyone to start Sacrificing for the redemption of Sin. It is to spit in the very face of Christ. However because you have gone 100% all in on establishing your Eschatology above all things, you even allow for there to be Sacrifices for Sins again, what horrible garbage that is...



No it doesnt, and you only think that because you have been brainwashed by Dispensationalism to think so. Again if we go thru Church History no one ever thought that these passages pertained to a literal Israel literally doing this again. That type of thinking absolutely overrides the entire purpose of Christ and the New Covenant which again has been done away with forever in Christ. You know this...

These Prophecies either relate to Christ and are fulfilled in Him or speak of the New Heaven and New Earth. Just take a step back and think about what you are arguing with me about for one moment. The idea of Forever, in absolutely no way can ANY Prophecy concerning FOREVER be fulfilled in a Millennial reign of Christ on this Earth. That negates the idea of FOREVER doesnt it?

If the Jews are supposed to be in Israel FOREVER, and you take that as a literal dwelling in a place in the Middle East, then once the World is destroyed, which I hope we can both agree WILL happen, then immediately your interpretation fails. Therefore we must negate the idea that anything pertaining to FOREVER is ever to be seen in a Physical Earthly fulfillment and instead is speaking of in Christ who is ETERNAL and truly FOREVER, or the New Heavens and New Earth which are again ETERNAL and truly FOREVER.

I dont have the time to show you how each of these verses are (what exactly the New Testament tells us FORESHADOWING) pertaining to either Christ or the New Heaven and New Earth, but if you or more like those who are open minded enough to learn a different Eschatology apart from Dispensationalism, I would recommend the Book The High King of Heaven by Dean Davis. It is rather lengthy but reads fast and gives and excellent understanding of what Old Testament Prophecies mean in light of the New Testament and emphasizes interpreting Prophecy in the same manner Jesus, the Apostles and the writers of the New Testament interpreted them. Which by the way definitely wasnt thru Dispensationalist Googles.



Is that right? Why dont you accept Scripture when it say 100% everything promised to Israel was given to them and God has already in the past 100% fulfilled His obligation to them?

Josh 21:43 And the Lord gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
44 And the Lord gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the Lord delivered all their enemies into their hand.
45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the Lord had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

Point blank period, straight up right there for the World to see, God had 100% given to Israel all the Land and not one thing the Lord spoke to Israel and their fathers were left out. It is right there Thunder, He did it all, now you want to tell us that He didnt?

Sorry bud I go with God and believe with zero doubts that everything He swore to Abraham, Issac, Jacob and Moses were all fulfilled just as it says right there. Your constant argument that something else has to be done or else God isnt fulfilling His promise to them falls flat on its face by that verse.

I have quoted this many times and there never is a response to it, would you care to actually answer how God didnt fulfill what He swore to them when the Bible in this verse says otherwise?

I doubt you will answer tho..



Really? You dont believe that Israel, the mass of people, are included in the New Covenant? So you believe that there is a different Covenant that this Earthly Fleshly Nation gets that is apart from the New Covenant, the one that God sent His own Son to die for and establish?

According to Scripture and the entire mass of Church History, Israel and the Church are the same thing. There is no distinction, but Dispensationalist MUST set them apart or else their entire Theology evaporates. I gave the verse, Paul says that the Church is the Israel of God. Over and over its shown in the New Testament that the Church has been grafted into Israel, that we are all One Body. There is no Jew or Gentile in Christ, there is no special Nation of God save the Church which is compromised of all believers Jew and Gentile INCLUDING those who lived in the Physical Nation of Israel before Jesus came...



Stop saying this, just because I disagree with you on interpreting Scripture does not mean I am ignorant of Scripture. IDK how many times it must be said, if we had a discussion 3 or 4 years ago, I would be agreeing with you. If in the past I would agree with you does that mean that I was ignorant of Scripture? No it means that I started seeing flaws in Dispensationalism and began to study it with an open mind and have seen that its not the best interpretation of Scriptures...

I will keep repeating myself if you continue to be demeaning about it tho. I once believed as you, if I am ignorant than so are you bro...



Again bud, I know the Bible, Jesus will NOT reign on a curse free Earth, its not even thought that in Dispensationalism, beacause you know SACRIFICING FOR SINS as you just wanted to argue at the beginning of the post. Talk about sloppy theology. Oh its a curse free Earth, but actually people still need to come to the Temple to Sacrifice for Sin because they are Sinning but Sin isnt really Sin or causes damage cuz its curse free.

That right there is one of the fatalistic flaws in Millennialism that was very hard for me to overlook. Its curse free, but people are still Sinning. Jesus died for ALL SIN ONCE AND FOR ALL, but people are going to bring Sacrifices for Sin offerings cuz they still Sin. Hypocrisy.



Again you are wrong on both of your accusations. First I believe that it has been fulfilled in Christ. Dont believe me? Well Paul says it was:

Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.
10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.
11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.
12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.
13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

Paul quotes that exact Scripture saying it was fulfilled in Jesus, yet you want to tell me it isnt? Again I go with Scripture apart from your man made Theology that forces you to reject Scripture to keep it afloat.

Second, if we interpret Scripture as Paul told us to, as allegories, which I quoted in the other posts you ignored, this is speaking of the change that happens when someone goes from unsaved to saved. Now before you just immediately shout that down, try and think about it Spiritually, instead of trying to jam it into some End Times literal Scenario.

Each of these creatures had to have a change of nature in order to act the way they do in this passage. The Wolf wants to eat the Lamb, the Lamb is afraid of the Wolf, however they had a change of nature and now the Wolf doesnt want to eat and harm the Lamb and the Lamb isnt afraid of the Wolf. This is an allegory of the change of nature that happens to one when they come to Christ.

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Ect ect ect, I mean you know all the verses that pertain to us having a changed nature when we come to Christ. Theres a whole lot that can be seen in these Scriptures apart from your Theology, but I am not going to get into it, but that is glimpse as to how the Church has interpreted Scriptures for eons. Your Theologies robs it of it application to us because your Theology only looks to a Physical Land Mass in the Middle East for fulfillment.

And thirdly, it is also fulfilled in the New Heavens and New Earth when THAT type of thing will be literally true, because let us not forget your Millennium has not only Sin in it, but also ends up having Satan running rampant and deceiving everyone again and millions or billions of people get destroyed AGAIN. Kinda removes that last verse if we take it LITERALLY during your Millennium..

9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain

Except for when Satan gets let loose and deceives everyone and they get hurt and destroyed. Again Hypocrisy. However in the New Earth and the New Heavens guess what, no one will hurt or destroy, the knowledge of the Lord will go all over that Earth, and the change of nature will be forever, not some garbage temporal just kidding kind of way that Millennialism makes it out to be...



Sounds awful, why would anyone be happy for that?

According to what I believe all of the Jews have the opportunity to repent and believe in Christ and not worry about some stupid land mass and instead look forward to the day that they and we all inherit the New Heavens and New Earth where everything will actually be perfect! Not some 1/2 and 1/2 Perfect but not really and watch out cuz Jesus is gonna smite you if you Sin and eventually Satan is gonna ruin it and cause most of you to die and go to Hell anyways version of End Times Prophecy. You know the one you hold...

I really don't have the time or patience to respond to these lengthy posts of yours, but I do want to point out two things that keep striking me about what you say.

First, you claim to have been a true blue, pre-trib, end times Christian, but it's clear that you don't actually understand the position. Maybe that's why were lured away by the heresies you now espouse.

Second, I can't tell you how funny it is to see you rail against dispensationalism, but then, in the same posts, detail different dispensations, ie. the Old Covenant vs the New. That is literally dispensationalism. The fact that you seem totally unaware of that is one reason why I don't waste much time answering you. Your misunderstanding of the Bible is so utterly profound, that there is literally not enough time to correct or counter everything you have wrong.

 

[Daciple]

it's clear that you don't actually understand the position.

You are wrong, 100% wrong I understand the position fully. Just because I disagree with you doesnt mean I dont understand the position. Which position of Dispensationalism would you like me to correctly spell out for you so you understand that I comprehend it?

That is literally dispensationalism.

No its not and shows that you have absolutely no understanding of Prophecy or Eschatology apart from the Dispensationalism you have been brainwashed into.

It is called Covenant Theology, look it up and IDK expand your knowledge...

The fact that you seem totally unaware of that is one reason why I don't waste much time answering you. Your misunderstanding of the Bible is so utterly profound, that there is literally not enough time to correct or counter everything you have wrong.

Right bud, same lame excuse, good thing I only use you as a Spring Board to give the different interpretations apart from Dispensationalism, because I am quite sure that many people dont even understand that they exist. Kind of like how you dont grasp that there is something called Covenant Theology and its worlds apart from Dispensationalism. You ignorant think because I speak of the 2 Covenants that I am espousing some form of Dispensationalism, you are wrong. I know you cant handle that but again you are wrong, just like you are wrong about what the History of the Church has believed since its inception, which would NOT be Dispensationalism...

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

I've mentioned it before but there are both covenants AND dispensations in the Bible. They are both true, but I do not believe they are true in opposition to each other or in replacement. I think this idea is hard to accept as many people have a western rather than a Jewish understanding of "how" to read scripture. I am only just learning on this view, so I'm no scholar!

Below is a useful reference article...

What that means for this debate should be evident from reading how these two correct understandings relate to one another:-

-------------

THE RULES OF PARDES

INTRODUCTION

The modern manner of interpreting Biblical text is commonly called exegesis. This method concerns itself mostly with the literary and grammatical context of Scripture verses. Practitioners of exegesis sometimes view anything beyond the literal text as "eisogesis" and often pay it little heed to it, or regard it with suspicion. This is an unfortunate error, a result of a backlash against improper allegorizing of the Scriptures, resulting in a case where "the baby is thrown out with the bathwater."

With regard to the proper understanding of the Hebrew Scriptures in their proper context, including the "New Testament" books, there are in fact "levels" of interpretation that must be taken into consideration. This was the method used to write and interpret Scripture by the authors themselves as well as the audience of their time and culture.

THE RULES OF PARDES INTERPRETATION *

The four level of interpretation are called: Parshat, Remez, D’rash & Sud. The first letter of each word P-R-D-S is taken, and vowels are added for pronunciation, giving the word PARDES (meaning "garden" or "orchard"). Each layer is deeper and more intense than the last, like the layers of an onion.

P'shat (pronounced peh-shaht' - meaning "simple")

The p'shat is the plain, simple meaning of the text. The understanding of scripture in its natural, normal sense using the customary meanings of the word’s being used, literary style, historical and cultural setting, and context. The p'shat is the keystone of Scripture understanding. If we discard the p'shat we lose any real chance of an accurate understanding and we are no longer objectively deriving meaning from the Scriptures (exegesis), but subjectively reading meaning into the scriptures (eisogesis). The Talmud states that no passage loses its p'shat:

Talmud Shabbat 63a - Rabbi Kahana objected to Mar son of Rabbi Huna: But this refers to the words of the Torah? A verse cannot depart from its plain meaning, he replied.​

​

Note that within the p'shat you can find several types of language, including figurative, symbolic and allegorical. The following generic guidelines can be used to determine if a passage is figurative and therefore figurative even in its p'shat:

1. When an inanimate object is used to describe a living being, the statement is figurative. Example: Isaiah 5:7 - For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant; and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.
2. When life and action are attributed to an inanimate object the statement is figurative. Example: Zechariah 5:1-3 - Then I turned, and lifted up my eyes, and looked, and behold a flying scroll. And he said to me, What do you see? And I answered, I see a flying scroll; its length is twenty cubits, and its width ten cubits. And he said to me, This is the curse that goes out over the face of the whole earth; for everyone who steals shall be cut off henceforth, according to it; and everyone who swears falsely shall be cut off henceforth, according to it.
3. When an expression is out of character with the thing described, the statement is figurative. Example: Psalm 17:8 - Keep me as the apple of the eye, hide me under the shadow of your wings ...

Remez (pronounced reh-mez' - meaning "hint")

This is where another (implied) meaning is alluded to in the text, usually revealling a deeper meaning. There may still be a p'shat meaning as well as another meaning as any verse can have multiple levels of meaning. An example of implied "REMEZ" Proverbs 20:10 - Different weights, and different measures, both of them are alike an abomination to the Lord. The p'shat would be concerned with a merchant using the same scale to weigh goods for all of his customers. The remez implies that this goes beyond this into aspects of fairness and honesty in anyone's life.

D’rash (pronounced deh-rahsh' also called "Midrash," meaning "concept")

This is a teaching or exposition or application of the P'shat and/or Remez. (In some cases this could be considered comparable to a "sermon.") For instance, Biblical writers may take two or more unrelated verses and combine them to create a verse(s) with a third meaning.

There are three rules to consider when utilizing the d'rash interpretation of a text:

1. A drash understanding can not be used to strip a passage of its p'shat meaning, nor may any such understanding contradict the p'shat meaning of any other scripture passage. As the Talmud states, "No passage loses its p'shat."
2. Let scripture interpret scripture. Look for the scriptures themselves to define the components of an allegory.
3. The primary components of an allegory represent specific realities. We should limit ourselves to these primary components when understanding the text.

Sud (pronounced either sawd, or sood [like "wood"] - meaning "hidden")

This understanding is the hidden, secret or mystic meaning of a text. An example most people are familiar with is Revelation 13:18, regarding the "beast" and the number "666."

EXAMPLES OF PARDES FROM MATTHEW

Examples of the Remez, D'rash and Sud, can be found in Matthew as follows. (Of course the p'shat is throughout the text.) Without knowledge and application of the rules of PARDES, these verses would either not make sense or indicate an error on the part of the author:

Remez
Matthew 2:15 - "Out of Egypt I called my son." This is a quote from Hosea 11:1 that Matthew is applying to Yeshua. If we stuck to a literal exegesis only and researched the quote, we would have to accuse Matthew of improperly using Scripture, as Hosea is clearly speaking of the nation of Israel, and not the Messiah. Matthew however, is hinting (a remez) at the relationship between Israel and the Messiah, in this and other verses he uses.

D'rash
Matthew 18:18 - "... Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven" This is a verse that has been interpreted in numerous (incorrect) ways due to a lack of understanding that this a d'rashconcerning decisions one makes in their personal "walk with God" (called your"halakha" in Hebrew/Judaism).

Sud
Matthew 26:28 - "Then He took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them saying, Drink from it all of you, This is my blood ..." Taken literally this verse verse would not only be a violation of the Torah commandment against consuming blood, but along with other verses about eating Yeshua's flesh (John 6:51-56), could be grounds for accusations of cannibalism. There is a far deeper, more mystical meaning here however (the sud), even one that those who heard Him did not understand (John 6:52).

http://www.yashanet.com/studies/revstudy/pardes.htm

 

[TokiEl]

Our accusers always blame us for their deeds.......deception at its best.

But it is a matter of historical fact that Islam has conquered raped robbed and plundered for over a thousand years.

I wonder how over a billion people think that this sort of action is of God.

Help !

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

This is the third time iam asking about the Edomites. Twice before, in two different threads, you didn't show up to tackle it.
Anyway, why were the mosques oriented towards Petra? What do the resident moslems have to say about this, @DesertRose, anything on this?

I see you read the prophecies on Edom literally just like you do with Israel. I read them as referring to spiritual Edom. It just doesn't make any sense that Christ is coming down to execute a great slaughter in a teeny tiny country like Jordan. Isaiah 34 (context Second Coming)
My sword has drunk its fill in the heavens; see, it descends in judgment on Edom, the people I have totally destroyed.
......For the LORD has a sacrifice in Bozrah and a great slaughter in the land of Edom.

Similar text, again context is Second Coming (Isaiah 24)

In that day the LORD will punish the powers in the heavens above and the kings on the earth below. They will be herded together like prisoners bound in a dungeon;
they will be shut up in prison and be punished after many days.vs 21,22.

Other texts on Edom; Isaiah 63:1-6, Jeremiah 25:15-33, Obadiah 1:1-18. Iam interested in how others (@phipps, @Red Sky at Morning, @TokiEl, @AspiringSoul) read these prophecies on Edom. Is it literal Edom or spiritual?

Fine.

You're welcome.

I think "Edomites" are used in various contexts in scripture in the same way Isaiah mentions the "King of Assyria" or "The Assyrian". Perhaps individual contexts can inform interpretaions more here?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Beware not only the leaven of the Pharisees, but also the PaRDeS of the Talmudists and Kabbalists, at least sometimes. For instance, as Sir Richard Burton pointed out in his highly controversial, reportedly suppressed, at best unflattering, quite possibly inaccurate treatise on Talmudic Jews and others, published, apparently reluctantly, by his estate after his death, and contrary to Rabbi Kahana's above objection, it seems a Biblical verse can indeed depart from its plain meaning. Here is an example:

"The argument from which this abominable belief [that all who are not part of their religion are brute beasts] is derived appears to be as follows: “When Abraham was ordered to offer up Isaac (Gen. xxii.), he saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him. But when he saw the place of sacrifice, he said unto his young men, ‘Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come, again to you.’” The Talmud declares that Abraham, who had seen God, asked his servants if they had likewise done so; and on their replying in the negative, he said to them, “Abide ye here with the ass,” meaning that they were animals like the ass. But this is by no means contrary to Scripture doctrine; for instance, Jeremiah (x. 8) calls the votaries of false religion “altogether brutish and foolish.” Thus the Law and the Prophets belong exclusively to the Jews; the Gentile reading or even buying a copy should be put to death. All the books of other faiths must be burnt, even though they contain the name of Jehovah; and if any but a Hebrew write the name of God in a Bible which is not a Jewish manuscript, the volume must also be burnt."​

The Jew, the Gypsy and El Islam​

Sir Richard Burton (pp. 73-74)​

​

I thought "abide ye here with the ass" meant exactly that, stay here with the donkey, not remain in the brutish state of one.

I think it is evident that all these layers of meaning were originally intended. It was not something dreamt up by the rabbis long after Jesus, but was embedded in the fabric of normal Biblical interpretation as the passage in Matthew illustrates.

Can interpretations be abused and misdirected? Can a five year old do serious damage with a circular saw?! You get the idea Serv ;-)

 

[TokiEl]

Other texts on Edom; Isaiah 63:1-6, Jeremiah 25:15-33, Obadiah 1:1-18. Iam interested in how others (@phipps, @Red Sky at Morning, @TokiEl, @AspiringSoul) read these prophecies on Edom. Is it literal Edom or spiritual?

It seems to me that the picture painted of Edom includes the eagle DUMBs and space travel.

 

[Daciple]

New man and new heavens and new earth... do not mean the destruction of the old man and the old heavens and the old earth.

Lol wut?

Biblical principal # 1, when we are made in the New Man, the Old Man died and is destroyed. So yes the destruction of the Old Man has happened.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Biblical principal #2 the elements will melt with fervent heat and be utterly destroyed.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

This is Scripture, the Heaven and Earth will dissolve, melt and pass away. The Greek here means 3089. luó met: I break, destroy, set at naught, contravene; I break up a meeting, annul.

This Earth and Heaven will indeed be destroyed, and we are too look forward to the New Heavens and New Earth, where you get this idea that this World wont be destroyed IDK but that is definitely what will happen when Jesus Returns. As in at His very visible, no such thing as a Secret Rapture, He will destroy the Earth, no Earthly Reign because it wont exist, at least according to Scripture..

No man this earth is not going anywhere and neither is you.

God is coming down.

And you can forget about crime because God will dwell on earth with man.

And if you become glorified as an angel you will rule God's Law with a rod of iron.

Well none of that is Scripture, Scripture says the Earth will be destroyed, that if there WAS some type of Millennial Reign it would be mixed with Sin, cuz ya know Satan comes out and deceives everyone and people are Sacrificing for Sin again ect.

 

[TokiEl]

Lol wut?

Biblical principal # 1, when we are made in the New Man, the Old Man died and is destroyed. So yes the destruction of the Old Man has happened.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Spiritually speaking the old man is destroyed but not literally. Same with the heavens and the earth.

Biblical principal #2 the elements will melt with fervent heat and be utterly destroyed.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

That is just nuclear fire. Which is bad enough of course.


No man God is coming down to tabernacle with man.

 

[Thunderian]

all the Gentile Christians [including Protestants, as he earlier specifies] are the seed, or children, of Esau, or Edom

I thought Christians were the seed of Abraham.

 

[Thunderian]

This is the third time iam asking about the Edomites. Twice before, in two different threads, you didn't show up to tackle it.

If you tagged me, I don't know why I didn't reply.

Anyway, why were the mosques oriented towards Petra? What do the resident moslems have to say about this,

That could be another thread, but I don't think Muslims would appreciate it.

I see you read the prophecies on Edom literally just like you do with Israel. I read them as referring to spiritual Edom. It just doesn't make any sense that Christ is coming down to execute a great slaughter in a teeny tiny country like Jordan. Isaiah 34 (context Second Coming)
My sword has drunk its fill in the heavens; see, it descends in judgment on Edom, the people I have totally destroyed.
......For the LORD has a sacrifice in Bozrah and a great slaughter in the land of Edom.

As I said in my post, it's the place where the Jews will flee to at the midpoint of the Tribulation, and be protected until Jesus Christ delivers them at his second coming. The great slaughter will be that of the armies of the nations of the world who have gathered to finally kill every last Jew on earth. Think of it as a warm-up to the main event -- Armageddon.

Similar text, again context is Second Coming (Isaiah 24)

In that day the LORD will punish the powers in the heavens above and the kings on the earth below. They will be herded together like prisoners bound in a dungeon;
they will be shut up in prison and be punished after many days.vs 21,22.

Other texts on Edom; Isaiah 63:1-6, Jeremiah 25:15-33, Obadiah 1:1-18. Iam interested in how others (@phipps, @Red Sky at Morning, @TokiEl, @AspiringSoul) read these prophecies on Edom. Is it literal Edom or spiritual?

I used to think you could take some of the Bible literally, and some of it spiritually, but I never learned how to figure out which parts were which, and how I could tell the difference. Jesus Christ took the Bible literally, so that has settled it for me. When you take it literally, and study it like that, all the so-called contradictions fall away, and the clear word comes through.

 

[DesertRose]

What do the resident moslems have to say about this, @DesertRose, anything on this?

Hey @Karlysymon never heard that theory but after a cursory check I found a non Muslim British orientalist has an essay debunking Dan Gibson's theory.
http://www.muslimheritage.com/article/from-petra-back-to-makka

Excerpts:

Early Islamic Qiblas is not only bitterly anti-Islamic and anti-Arabian in purpose. Its superficial fancies are so ridiculous that at first anybody with a vague idea about the qibla might think that this is just a ‘leg-pull’, pure ‘spoof’. The author is sadly out of touch with contemporary research on Islam, on the history of mathematics, astronomy, instrumentation, archeoastronomy, ethnoastronomy, and more. This is a tiresome travesty of history and nothing more than pretentious humbug."


Gibson, having in his opinion established that Muslims have been praying in the wrong direction for well over a millennium, expresses his hope that Muslims will now see the light (p. 272). But, in reality, they have less to worry about than he thinks. All of Gibson’s investigations of early medieval orientations using modern data and modern mathematical methods are of no historical value. His efforts to show that the Muslims from China to al-Andalus must have had all the necessary technical equipment to find the direction of Petra accurately to within a degree or two are ridiculous. Fortunately, his mission has self-destructed.

The author of the article is:
David A. King is a British orientalist who has devoted some 50 years researching the original sources – manuscripts and instruments – for the history of science in the medieval Islamic world. He has a doctorate from Yale University (1972)....etc
(For more on the essay and his info please click on the link above.)

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

@Daciple and @Thunderian - I don't claim to have all the answers on this one, all I have is my gut feeling on the theology as the Churches is the UK I have been a part of focus much more on here and now everyday Christianity, and dodge the issue of these "macro" interpretations entirely.

For you, @Daciple - I also go on "christforums.net" where Dispensationalism is a minority view and Covenantalism and Amillennialism are thought of as being self-evident truths.

I don't bother trying to argue with people on the subject as these interpretive frameworks sit above the level of the text. I am satisfied God knows what he is doing with history and I personally find dispensational interpretations persuasive. On the other hand "hyper-didpensationalism" creates what almost amounts to another Gospel and misses the understanding of the purpose of the Church!

A pastor years ago introduced me to "antinomy" - seeming contradictory positions which held in tension provide with insight and wisdom. As people we don't often operate on these lines so Christians can quickly become "Kingdom Now" dominionists as easily as they can abdicate from culture and look up at the sky with the Torah calendar on their wall. Perhaps this is not the debate for me as I think both views have merit and limitations. Covenentalism seems to struggle interpreting the structure of the Bible, Dispensationalism if carried to the extreme can miss the substance. Of course, all the above is merely my opinion on the topic, for what it's worth.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

@Thunderian - I think you may appreciate the things that come out in this dialogue between a Christian and a Messianic Jew on what is happening right now in the world.

God bless!

 

[bible_student]

Leaving this here for anyone who may be interested. The complete speech is quite an interesting history lesson.

Zionists Rule the US

Here in the United States, the Zionists and their co-religionists have complete control of our government. For many reasons, too many and too complex to go into here at this time, the Zionists and their co-religionists rule these United States as though they were the absolute monarchs of this country. Now you may say that is a very broad statement, but let me show you what happened while we were all asleep.

The First World War

What happened? World War I broke out in the summer of 1914. There are few people here my age who remember that. Now that war was waged on one side by Great Britain, France, and Russia; and on the other side by Germany, Austria-Hungary, and Turkey.

Within two years Germany had won that war: not only won it nominally, but won it actually. The German submarines, which were a surprise to the world, had swept all the convoys from the Atlantic Ocean. Great Britain stood there without ammunition for her soldiers, with one week's food supply and after that, starvation. At that time, the French army had mutinied. They had lost 600,000 of the flower of French youth in the defense of Verdun on the Somme. The Russian army was defecting, they were picking up their toys and going home, they didn't want to play war anymore, they didn't like the Czar. And the Italian army had collapsed.

Not a shot had been fired on German soil. Not one enemy soldier had crossed the border into Germany. And yet, Germany was offering England peace terms. They offered England a negotiated peace on what the lawyers call a status quo ante basis. That means: "Let's call the war off, and let everything be as it was before the war started." England, in the summer of 1916 was considering that - seriously. They had no choice. It was either accepting this negotiated peace that Germany was magnanimously offering them, or going on with the war and being totally defeated.

Stalemate in 1916. Zionists Offer to get USA into the War

While that was going on, the Zionists in Germany, who represented the Zionists from Eastern Europe, went to the British War Cabinet and (I am going to be brief because it's a long story, but I have all the documents to prove any statement that I make) they said: "Look here. You can yet win this war. You don't have to give up. You don't have to accept the negotiated peace offered to you now by Germany. You can win this war if the United States will come in as your ally." The United States was not in the war at that time. We were fresh; we were young; we were rich; we were powerful. They told England: "We will guarantee to bring the United States into the war as your ally, to fight with you on your side, if you will promise us Palestine after you win the war." In other words, they made this deal: "We will get the United States into this war as your ally. The price you must pay is Palestine after you have won the war and defeated Germany, Austria-Hungary, and Turkey."...

Further on, Freedman continues... "What are the facts about the Jews? (I call them Jews to you, because they are known as Jews. I don't call them Jews myself. I refer to them as so-called Jews, because I know what they are.) The eastern European Jews, who form 92 per cent of the world's population of those people who call themselves Jews, were originally Khazars."...

"Benjamin H. Freedman was one of the most intriguing and amazing individuals of the 20th century. Mr. Freedman, born in 1890, was a successful Jewish businessman of New York City who was at one time the principal owner of the Woodbury Soap Company. He broke with organized Jewry after the Judeo-Communist victory of 1945, and spent the remainder of his life and the great preponderance of his considerable fortune, at least 2.5 million dollars, exposing the Jewish tyranny which has enveloped the United States. Mr. Freedman knew what he was talking about because he had been an insider at the highest levels of Jewish organizations and Jewish machinations to gain power over our nation. Mr. Freedman was personally acquainted with Bernard Baruch, Samuel Untermyer, Woodrow Wilson, Franklin Roosevelt, Joseph Kennedy, and John F. Kennedy, and many more movers and shakers of our times. This speech was given before a patriotic audience in 1961 at the Willard Hotel in Washington, D.C., on behalf of Conde McGinley's patriotic newspaper of that time, Common Sense. Though in some minor ways this wide-ranging and extemporaneous speech has become dated, Mr. Freedman's essential message to us - his warning to the West - is more urgent than ever before. - K.A.S."

(Extract, from "Benjamin Freedman Speaks - A Jewish Defector Warns America")

But of course.. if you want to you will be able to find people online (or in your church) who will readily claim that all of that is just a debunked conspiracy theory, but is it really?

Especially from behind the pulpits of the 501(c)(3) non profit tax status christian churches, that have all been infiltrated long ago. (You may want to look into this, if you don't know what it means.)

In short.. it means that ALL of the sermons must follow the government approved narrative. It means they can't (won't) talk about or mention certain things. Otherwise, the church will lose its non profit tax exempt status. That means, donations also stop because those donations will no longer be tax deductible, so they will lose both members and their donations. That is why you will never hear the whole truth in church, because they are not allowed to preach it. The love of money.

The so-called separation between church and state is therefore an illusion. Because, through the implementation of 501(c)(3) status (carrot on stick/control) there is no separation between church and state (and those who control it).

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Leaving this here for anyone who may be interested. The complete speech is quite an interesting history lesson.



(Extract, from "Benjamin Freedman Speaks - A Jewish Defector Warns America")

But of course.. if you want to you will be able to find people online (or in your church) who will readily claim that all of that is just a debunked conspiracy theory, but is it really?

Especially from behind the pulpits of the 501(c)(3) non profit tax status christian churches, that have all been infiltrated long ago. (You may want to look into this, if you don't know what it means.)

In short.. it means that ALL of the sermons must follow the government approved narrative. It means they can't (won't) talk about or mention certain things. Otherwise, the church will lose its non profit tax exempt status. That means, donations also stop because those donations will no longer be tax deductible, so they will lose both members and their donations. That is why you will never hear the whole truth in church, because they are not allowed to preach it. The love of money.

The so-called separation between church and state is therefore an illusion. Because, through the implementation of 501(c)(3) status (carrot on stick/control) there is no separation between church and state (and those who control it).

Lack of separation of Church and State? What if the "elites" could get the Christians to preach a message that was no longer the Gospel?

What if this tolerant brand of Christianity became the dominant voice and state sponsored persecution of non-compliant Christians began?

The Bible indicates just such a scenario will exist around the last days. Like it or not, we are here.