Another Perspective On Lgbtq

Karlysymon

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What the hell, I dont disagree with you. :D

But this is a good post... why aren't alcoholics accepted as Born that Way?

Drug addicts in Europe were, at one time.. clean heroin on the dole. :)

In Finland, they do care for alcoholic brethren.. just how it is, but I digress. Good point, Karly.
Thank you. Neither did I disagree. Just that this whole "I was compromised in-utero" only seems to work when it comes to sexuality or gender and not other things.
 

mecca

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i thought non-binaries did not have a gender identity. and what about "gender fluid"?
It is a gender identity. Non binary means your gender isn't exclusively masculine or feminine, not that you don't have one... but non-binary as a category can include people who don't want to label themselves or don't think of themselves a certain gender. Non-binary is a term that can refer to people who feel like a mix of both genders or people who feel like neither. It technically directly relates to the gender binary even though it doesn't fit within it.

Gender fluidity is a gender identity and it means that they switch between feeling more like a girl to feeling more like a guy, their gender isn't always fixed on one side or the other like most people, it moves between them. But they don't have an absence of gender.
 

polymoog

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It is a gender identity. Non binary means your gender isn't exclusively masculine or feminine, not that you don't have one... but non-binary as a category can include people who don't want to label themselves or don't think of themselves a certain gender. Non-binary is a term that can refer to people who feel like a mix of both genders or people who feel like neither. It technically directly relates to the gender binary even though it doesn't fit within it.

Gender fluidity is a gender identity and it means that they switch between feeling more like a girl to feeling more like a guy, their gender isn't always fixed on one side or the other like most people, it moves between them. But they don't have an absence of gender.

SO.... non binary means the person has a gender which is variable or mixed but also anonymous.
gender fluid means the person wakes up one day feeling like a guy and on another day, feeling like a girl or anywhere in between.

what you are describing is not identity but an experience. having a yo-yoing identity is not a real identity.

Gender dysphoria is simply not a genetic mutation. It probably arises due to prenatal hormones.
and so if the hormones are fluctuating so drastically in these non-binary and gender fluid individuals that they experience differing male or female or 'neither' feelings on a daily basis, wouldnt psychological help seem prudent?

you said that blue eyed people cannot feel that they have brown eyes.....
Because eye color isn't connected with your brain and hormones. It's not a part of your personality or state of mind.
but ones mind would obviously "identify" as someone who has brown eyes as one would "feel" more comfortable having brown eyes, or even feel that they always felt like theyve had brown eyes since childhood. perhaps an "instinctual connection". thats clearly a state of mind and a part of ones personality.

you either have to accept transgender, trans-racists (dolezal), trans-ageists (people who think they are 11 year olds when they are much older), trans-specied (think they are not human), and trans-abled people (think they are handicapped), (and people who feel that they have brown eyes when they have blue eyes) as legitimate because they have an instinctual mental connection with their identity
-OR-
you agree that all such "feelings" are really psychological disorders. (whether they should be embraced or corrected is irrelevant.)
 

mecca

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what you are describing is not identity but an experience. having a yo-yoing identity is not a real identity.
Gender identity is defined as the personal innate sense of one's own gender. People identify as non-binary and gender fluid because that's their gender. It is an identity, that's how they view and identify themselves and that's what they feel in tune with. It's how they express their gender and how they describe it to others.
or even feel that they always felt like theyve had brown eyes since childhood.perhaps an "instinctual connection". thats clearly a state of mind and a part of ones personality.
Eye color isn't connected to hormones and it doesn't affect brain chemistry. It is possible that someone feels that way but it doesn't make eye color a state of mind. That's not an actual thing in the first place, people don't really go through that.

What sim hae brought up is dysphoria about eye color but it's the result of a sudden drastic change in eye color. Your eyes were one color one day, and they drastically changed due to a disease or bad eye drops or chemical exposure. The change made it feel different from how you always were before and your eyes no longer feel like your own, so you get dysphoric about them and you don't like the way they look. That is eye color dysphoria but it's a different type of dysphoria compared to gender dysphoria that transgender people go through. They look different and have different causes/reasons for occurrence.

A transgender person doesn't have dysphoria because their body was one way and it has been drastically altered, they never felt like their body was right for them in the first place. It's because their brains don't completely look like their biological sex and when they look at their body, it feels wrong to them because what they expect to see is not what's actually there. Their brain feels closer to the opposite sex even though the rest of their body isn't. Transgender people feel better on the opposite sex's hormones and they would feel like themselves if they could have the opposite sex's body. When a trans person takes hormones, it makes their brain feel better because it's what they needed. It helps them think clearly and it can alleviate depression for them, it makes them feel more comfortable as who they are and helps their dysphoria. If a cisgender person took hormones, they would actually experience dysphoria about the changes it causes to their body, because they are not trans and have no need to transition to the opposite gender. Gender dysphoria is a symptom and it can arise when of some sort of prenatal hormone disruption/difference causes your brain to develop more towards one way, and your body to develop the other way. But there is still variation even within that circumstance because everybody doesn't end up fully on one side or the other, people can end up in between or closer towards one side but still not all the way there.

Within the first two months of pregnancy, sexual differentiation of the genitals takes place... but sexual/hormonal differentiation of the brain takes place in the second half of pregnancy. Since these things occur at different times, there can be misalignments. There can also just be hormone imbalances that occur that don't give the right amount of hormones. Natural variation just occurs and it's a factor in why people end up transgender and non-binary.
and so if the hormones are fluctuating so drastically in these non-binary and gender fluid individuals
I don't know if their hormones are drastically fluctuating everyday but variation exist in the way people are born and they way they feel so if someone can be transgender, you can have another person that doesn't fully identify with their biological sex (similar to a trans person) but they also do not want to switch to completely living as the other sex, they don't feel fully in tune with that either (making them non-binary). They may feel more masculine one day and identify with being more feminine another day, or they might just consistently feel like they're always in the middle. People can have different levels of dysphoria and different levels of need for transitioning. Gender can be seen as a spectrum in that way... there is a spectrum of transness. Regardless of the specifics of why/how it occurs, these people just want to be happy in their lives and transitioning or expressing themselves differently can help them to have a positive and fulfilling life where they feel comfortable with their identity.
 
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sim hae

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On the topic of dysphoria...
Why Is Transgender An Identity But Anorexia A Disorder?
I approach this topic with a wrenching awareness of what it feels like to be disconnected from your body, to hate with every fiber of your being the way you look in the mirror, and to be willing to undergo great feats of self-mutilation to achieve a vision that is always just out of grasp. My perspective on the matter, however, probably would not go over well among most LGBTQ individuals. As a person who has struggled with anorexia nervosa since puberty, the transgender anguish resonates with me. The similarities between the two illnesses are striking. Yet one is an identity, and the other is a disorder. Why?

At the heart of gender dysphoria is a paradoxical desire to be characterized as something one simultaneously declares is ineffable (i.e. gender roles are illusory cultural constructs, but I yearn to concretely embody that illusion). The contradictory desire in transgenderism is similar in hopelessness as the desire in anorexia. The goal is to be thin, and one is never thin enough until one is dead. The goal is to be a sex other than one’s biological makeup, and one cannot alter one’s chromosomes and genetic makeup.

If a man wants to wear makeup, dresses, even get breast implants, who are we to stop him? If he wants to legally change his name to Maureen, great! But language policing, the implication that by misusing a pronoun we are savaging a person’s very core, is untenable. Using “he” instead of “she” may very well hurt someone’s feelings, but that is a level of sensitivity on par with agoraphobia (fear of crowded or enclosed public spaces). The onus is on the person to find ways of coping. The world cannot be responsible for validating a confusing, opaque issue that has been too quickly transferred from “disorder” to “condition,” from irrational to heroic.

Remember Your Descartes? Feelings Aren’t Reliable
We cannot rely on our “feelings,” as strong as they are. If I relied on my feelings, I’d be dead. Why? Because my feelings tell me that eating food means gaining weight, and gaining weight is intolerable. Transgender children are apparently absolutely sure they were born in the wrong body. It is a belief held so deeply that we throw out all the entrenched knowledge of psychology and mental illness to appease it.

People with anorexia can often trace their discomfort with their own bodies back to early childhood, as well. Both situations are abstract feelings that clearly contradict reality. The certainty that one is a woman despite being born a man sounds awfully similar to the conviction that one’s body is overweight even when body-mass index is at starvation levels. The feeling of hunger—the most primal, ingrained of physiological response—impels the individual to abstain. Can you question the depth of that belief?

No one with any understanding of the matter is denying that a mismatch exists between the person’s brain and her body. The approach to “wellness” however, is hopelessly backward. The brain is the component of this puzzle with the capacity for immense plasticity. Noninvasive reconditioning occurs every day. The body is the factor that is hardest to alter in any meaningful way. So why are sex-reassignment surgeries the gold-standard treatment method in gender dysphoria literature? Why is such a drastic, violent procedure championed so fiercely?

The question is not whether someone’s identity should be validated, but whether the validation should accompany an attempt to fabricate an impossible artifice. If a man feels he is a woman on the inside, this begs the question: What is a woman? The unswervingly nebulous explanations that abound in defense of transgender rights echo the desperate bravado of the pro-ana crowd.

Adults have the right to dress, act, and live however they damn well please. But the swiftness with which the transgender “condition” has been accepted as mentally healthy is unfair to both the public at large and the individuals themselves. There are no 100 percent effective treatments for anorexia nervosa, but that doesn’t mean that’s how my mind is supposed to work and I should embrace it. The same should apply to gender dysphoria.

whole article on thefederalist.com/2016/06/27/why-is-transgender-an-identity-but-anorexia-a-disorder/
 

Violette

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On the topic of dysphoria...
Why Is Transgender An Identity But Anorexia A Disorder?
I approach this topic with a wrenching awareness of what it feels like to be disconnected from your body, to hate with every fiber of your being the way you look in the mirror, and to be willing to undergo great feats of self-mutilation to achieve a vision that is always just out of grasp. My perspective on the matter, however, probably would not go over well among most LGBTQ individuals. As a person who has struggled with anorexia nervosa since puberty, the transgender anguish resonates with me. The similarities between the two illnesses are striking. Yet one is an identity, and the other is a disorder. Why?

At the heart of gender dysphoria is a paradoxical desire to be characterized as something one simultaneously declares is ineffable (i.e. gender roles are illusory cultural constructs, but I yearn to concretely embody that illusion). The contradictory desire in transgenderism is similar in hopelessness as the desire in anorexia. The goal is to be thin, and one is never thin enough until one is dead. The goal is to be a sex other than one’s biological makeup, and one cannot alter one’s chromosomes and genetic makeup.

If a man wants to wear makeup, dresses, even get breast implants, who are we to stop him? If he wants to legally change his name to Maureen, great! But language policing, the implication that by misusing a pronoun we are savaging a person’s very core, is untenable. Using “he” instead of “she” may very well hurt someone’s feelings, but that is a level of sensitivity on par with agoraphobia (fear of crowded or enclosed public spaces). The onus is on the person to find ways of coping. The world cannot be responsible for validating a confusing, opaque issue that has been too quickly transferred from “disorder” to “condition,” from irrational to heroic.

Remember Your Descartes? Feelings Aren’t Reliable
We cannot rely on our “feelings,” as strong as they are. If I relied on my feelings, I’d be dead. Why? Because my feelings tell me that eating food means gaining weight, and gaining weight is intolerable. Transgender children are apparently absolutely sure they were born in the wrong body. It is a belief held so deeply that we throw out all the entrenched knowledge of psychology and mental illness to appease it.

People with anorexia can often trace their discomfort with their own bodies back to early childhood, as well. Both situations are abstract feelings that clearly contradict reality. The certainty that one is a woman despite being born a man sounds awfully similar to the conviction that one’s body is overweight even when body-mass index is at starvation levels. The feeling of hunger—the most primal, ingrained of physiological response—impels the individual to abstain. Can you question the depth of that belief?

No one with any understanding of the matter is denying that a mismatch exists between the person’s brain and her body. The approach to “wellness” however, is hopelessly backward. The brain is the component of this puzzle with the capacity for immense plasticity. Noninvasive reconditioning occurs every day. The body is the factor that is hardest to alter in any meaningful way. So why are sex-reassignment surgeries the gold-standard treatment method in gender dysphoria literature? Why is such a drastic, violent procedure championed so fiercely?

The question is not whether someone’s identity should be validated, but whether the validation should accompany an attempt to fabricate an impossible artifice. If a man feels he is a woman on the inside, this begs the question: What is a woman? The unswervingly nebulous explanations that abound in defense of transgender rights echo the desperate bravado of the pro-ana crowd.

Adults have the right to dress, act, and live however they damn well please. But the swiftness with which the transgender “condition” has been accepted as mentally healthy is unfair to both the public at large and the individuals themselves. There are no 100 percent effective treatments for anorexia nervosa, but that doesn’t mean that’s how my mind is supposed to work and I should embrace it. The same should apply to gender dysphoria.

whole article on thefederalist.com/2016/06/27/why-is-transgender-an-identity-but-anorexia-a-disorder/
Gonna read this later!
 

TempestOfTempo

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It is a gender identity. Non binary means your gender isn't exclusively masculine or feminine, not that you don't have one... but non-binary as a category can include people who don't want to label themselves or don't think of themselves a certain gender. Non-binary is a term that can refer to people who feel like a mix of both genders or people who feel like neither. It technically directly relates to the gender binary even though it doesn't fit within it.

Gender fluidity is a gender identity and it means that they switch between feeling more like a girl to feeling more like a guy, their gender isn't always fixed on one side or the other like most people, it moves between them. But they don't have an absence of gender.
So where do you rank the rights of us who simply wish to continue with our reality-based gender consciousness that nature itself has provided?
 

mecca

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So where do you rank the rights of us who simply wish to continue with our reality-based gender consciousness that nature itself has provided?
Gender comes from the brain and the brain comes from nature. So people are naturally inclined to feel a certain gender. When you look at the reality of the world, nature is diverse and not everything can always be neatly categorized or separated. Humans are also one of the most diverse and interesting species because our brains are the most advanced and we sort of experience more, in a way.

All humans have and deserve rights. Rights are equal and no one should be mistreated for who they are.
 

TempestOfTempo

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Gender comes from the brain and the brain comes from nature. So people are naturally inclined to feel a certain gender. When you look at the reality of the world, nature is diverse and not everything can always be neatly categorized or separated. Humans are also one of the most diverse and interesting species because our brains are the most advanced and we sort of experience more, in a way.

All humans have and deserve rights. Rights are equal and no one should be mistreated for who they are.
Human gender comes from assigned-at-birth, sexual reproductive and biological physical manifestations of males and females. There are incredibly rare exceptions such as hermaphrodites and etc. but gender is not a construct of societal or individual conscious or desire, its scientific and natural law.
 

elsbet

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Gender comes from the brain and the brain comes from nature. So people are naturally inclined to feel a certain gender. When you look at the reality of the world, nature is diverse and not everything can always be neatly categorized or separated. Humans are also one of the most diverse and interesting species because our brains are the most advanced and we sort of experience more, in a way.

All humans have and deserve rights. Rights are equal and no one should be mistreated for who they are.
Gender comes from chromosomes.

XX
XY

Intersex is the legitimate exception.

Interesting to note--

Trans-Stats
"... 2016 suggested a current US population size of 390 adults per 100 000, or almost 1 million adults nationally. This estimate may be more indicative for younger adults, who represented more than 50% of the respondents in our analysis."

Further.. most kids outgrow the "dysphoria"-- desist is the term.

How perfectly evil is it that children are given 'puberty blockers' prior to introducing hormones of the opposite sex into their still growing bodies? It's very evil, of course-- they're trying to be sure they STRIKE while the iron is still hot, before they outgrow it.

Wonder how many of the trans people are actually being re-victimized by this malpractice. .. :/
 
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It occurs to me that those who don't happen to fit within the boundaries of rigid gender norms would be less inclined to take such drastic measures to physically alter themselves if it wasn't for all the social pressure telling them the outward appearance must match the identity.
 

mecca

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Intersex is the legitimate exception.
If an intersex person's gender comes from somewhere separate from their chromosomes, they why couldn't it be true for a non-intersex person? If gender identity is able to be formed from something else, then that means that it is possible in the case of transgender people as well. In fact it's pretty much demonstrated in the case of transgender and intersex people that gender identity can come from something separate from chromosomes and that variations in gender identity can naturally occur. Chromosomes tell us our biological sex and our sex characteristics but that doesn't mean that people's brains can't be different. Also, I already pointed out that a big factor in why dysphoria occurs is because of hormonal differences during fetal development which causes the brain to develop towards one gender and the body towards the other. In that way it is somewhat similar to an intersex condition.

I can accept that transgender people exist and all I can hope for is that they have a happy life. They don't bother me and I see nothing wrong with them existing in the world. it's not like they are going to stop existing anyway.
 
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mecca

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Human gender comes from assigned-at-birth, sexual reproductive and biological physical manifestations of males and females. There are incredibly rare exceptions such as hermaphrodites and etc. but gender is not a construct of societal or individual conscious or desire, its scientific and natural law.
I think you're referring to biological sex there, not gender.
 

elsbet

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If an intersex person's gender comes from somewhere separate from their chromosomes, they why couldn't it be true for a non-intersex person?
Intersex is XXY.

EDIT:
There are other variations, but they are concrete and accompanied by characteristics well beyond thoughts and feelings-- they are usually quite visible.

LINK
 
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mecca

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Intersex is XXY.

EDIT: There are other variations, but they are concrete and accompanied by characteristics well beyond thoughts and feelings-- they are usually quite visible.

LINK
I know what intersex conditions are. Their biological sex ends up ambiguous, they are neither male nor female... Yet many of them still feel like a man or woman, they still have a gender identity that they are in tune with.
 

TempestOfTempo

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It occurs to me that those who don't happen to fit within the boundaries of rigid gender norms would be less inclined to take such drastic measures to physically alter themselves if it wasn't for all the social pressure telling them the outward appearance must match the identity.
An interesting contention FHM......
 

mecca

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I disagree. They are intrinsically linked together.
They are correlated but they are simply not the same thing. They are two separate words with different definitions and connotations. Gender can be separate from biological sex.
 
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