Dr. William Campbell destroyed by Dr. Zakir Naik on scientific errors in the Bible MUST WATCH!!

[Haich]

"....where an angel wrestled with him all night till the breaking of the day. While wrestling, the angel touched the hollow of Jacob's thigh, causing him to limp; but the angel was overpowered by Jacob, who would not let him go until blessed by him. The angel then changed Jacob's name to "Israel" ( , apparently shortened from = "he over powered Elohim"). Jacob gave to the place at which this event occurred the name "Peniel" ("for I have seen Elohim face to face"). The Israelites commemorate the event to this day by not eating "the sinew which shrank which is upon the hollow of the thigh"

http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/8381-jacob

As Muslims always say, we don't accept everything from Christianity and Judaism.

This event is not mentioned in the Qur'an. You have shown me a verse which says an angel wrestled with God. Your Christian counterparts presented a verse which stated God wrestled with God. So which version do you take? Why are there two readings to Jacob's story?

If you believe God came in the form of angel and wrestled with Jacob, how could Jacob, a mere mortal win? It makes no sense to believe in a God who constantly takes human form (or angel form) and interfere with the life of this world. If you really believe God takes forms, you have a incredibly odd and skewed understanding of not only His superemity but what befits him and his grandeur.

This isn't millionaire boss, where the CEO wears a wig and spies on his employees. An interfering God taking human or angel form, to wrestle a man he felt was righteous enough to be a prophet , makes no sense.

Personally, as a Muslim I would read this event as someone who struggled FOR God, not WITH God...

 

[Haich]

So, of the 3 Abrahamic faiths, only two acknowledge this event as having taken place. Would you actually call 'rubbish' to his face, the orthodox jew who keeps the tradition that commemorates that event?

Muslims believe the Torah and bible have been filled and transformed with the utterances of man, which is proved by the numerous contradictions in each of the books.

To even entertain such an idea for me is not only rubbish but absurd. The anonymity we have online, allows us to probably push our linguistic capabilities so no, I wouldn't offend someone face to face. However, I do find it an absolutely bewildering thought, to think God came and gave the people's elbow to Jacob.

That's quite an emotional argument Karly. I have no issue with people commemorating what they believe, this discussion was more about capabilities of God and what is befitting for a being of His grandeur. He simply wouldn't do the things you and Jews are ascribing to Him. If that's what you believe- fine- but I have a right to disagree and challenge it.

Ibn Kathir references this in his book (Stories of the prophets)

stories of the prophets by ibn Kathir
http://www.kalamullah.com/Books/Stories Of The Prophets By Ibn Kathir.pdf

from the above link/ebook

"When the dawn of the second day came one of the angels appeared in the shape of a man. Jacob
began to wrestle with him. They were neck and neck until the angel injured his thigh and Jacob
became lame. When the day was breaking, the angel said to him: 'What is your name?' He
answered: 'Jacob.' The angel said: "After today you shall not be called anything but Israel." Jacob
asked: "Who are you? What is your name?" He vanished. Then Jacob knew that he was one of the
angels. Jacob was lame, and for this reason the children of Israel do not eat the thigh muscle on
the hip socket."

This version would make more sense, an angel taking the form of a man - not God himself !

 

[Haich]

The shias commemorate the death of the prophet's grandson by slashing themselves. It's not in the Qur'an and to do such a thing is considered a deviant innovation.

The jews may commemorate the event but it's not in their book. That's why their religion faltered in its time, full of innovations.

We can't always celebrate innovations which go against the word of God...

 

[Haich]

I believe ibn kathir took the torah version of events but your book says 'God' wrestled with Jacob...It is indeed your book which goes against tradition.

 

[Haich]

Does the Quran mention (i doubt it) that name by any chance: Israel/Israelites? So, as its obvious, there is no way that a blood descendant or spiritual israelite is going to scoff at that event. Its central to both faiths.

It references them countless times as the tribe of Israel. Bani Israel...
We read in the Quran that God favoured the Children of Israel (Bani Israel) above all other people:

O Children of Israel, remember My blessings that I bestowed upon you, and that I favoured you over all peoples. 2:47

The act of favouring the Children of Israel has been misinterpreted by some Jews making it appear that God has made them a race above all others! The aim of this research is to establish the Quranic meaning of this favour given to the Children of Israel.

1- The ultimate aim of our life on earth is to believe in God and worship Him alone (51:56). It is through this belief that we would earn the right to be redeemed and admitted to Heaven in the Hereafter. As a result, all worldly matters such as our jobs, our families, our livelihood and so on, even though they may seem to be of the utmost importance to us during our lives, in reality, they are no more than tests set by God which we have to negotiate during our lives (8:28). They are not of any eternal importance or value.

2- If passing the test of this life is all that really matters, it can be said that those who are given an easier test would have indeed been granted a favour from God, as opposed to those who go through a more difficult test. Remember the test here is one of believing in God alone, and refraining from idol worship. What then constitutes what can be called an easier test?

3- Since we cannot see God, belief in God is therefore something we attain through faith and reason. On the other hand, anyone who has witnessed a special sign from God in the shape of a miracle would have been given more evidence of God than someone who has never seen any sign from God. The precise benefit gained through witnessing a miracle is mentioned in 74:31, which describes the purpose of the miracle of 19, but equally applies to witnessing all kinds of miracles:

So that those who believe would increase in faith. 74:31

4- When we consider the Children of Israel, they witnessed more miracles from God than any other people:

Ask the Children of Israel how many clear miracles We gave them. For the one who substitutes God's blessings after it came to him, then surely God's punishment is severe. 2:221

The Quran speaks of 'nine miracles' given to Prophet Moses (17:101), see: Nine miracles of Moses
We also know that these were not the only miracles witnessed by the Children of Israel. We read in the Quran about other miracles given to the Children of Israel after they departed from Egypt, and after Pharaoh and his army were drowned, such as the 12 springs which gushed with water, and the raining down of manna and salwa (7:160).
Allowing people to witness miracles is undoubtedly a great favour from God, since it strengthens the faith of the beholder (74:31), as opposed to those who have never witnessed miracles from God.

5- In addition, the Children of Israel were the first people to receive a fully comprehensive and fully detailed Law from God. The Quran speaks of the "suhuf" of Abraham, but this word, which literally means 'pages/scrolls' indicates that Abraham was given a brief form of Scripture, as opposed to a comprehensive Book of law. In contrast, the Book given to Moses and the Children of Israel is described as being fully detailed and comprehensive:

Then We gave Moses the Book, completeand perfect for those who do good, and clarification of all things, and a guidance and mercy so that they may believe in meeting their Lord. 6:154
6- In addition, there were more Prophets sent to the Children of Israel than to any other people, each delivering a Scripture containing guidance and healing for the people. The Torah is the collection of Scriptures given to all the Prophets sent to the Children of Israel.
This multitude of Scriptures constitute great blessings which God bestowed on the Children of Israel, which were not bestowed on other people.
The Quran lists 20 names of Prophets throughout time. Out of the 20 Prophets mentioned in the Quran no less than thirteen Prophets were sent to the Children of Israel, starting from Jacob and ending with Jesus, they are:
Jacob – Joseph - Moses – Aaron – David – Solomon – Job – Jonah – Elias – Elisha – Zachariah – John - Jesus.
This leaves only 7 prophets sent to the rest of mankind and they are:
Noah - Idris - Abraham – Lot - Isaac – Ishmael - Muhammad

To conclude, the Children of Israel were given great blessings from God as follows:
1- They witnessed more miracles from God than any other people.
2- They were the first people to receive a fully comprehensive Scripture from God (Torah).
3- They received no less than 13 Prophets from God.

It is no wonder that after all these blessings bestowed by God on the Children of Israel that Moses tells them:
And Moses said to his people, "O my people, remember God's blessings upon you for He appointed Prophets amongst you, made you kings, and granted you what He did not grant any other people." 5:20

 

[Karlysymon]

It is huge, agreed. Again, if only to keep things lively, I approach the bench and play a Defense to your (and others') Prosecuting Attorney. First, I point out that St. Paul himself warned Titus against "giving heed to Jewish fables," and though I know Christians answer that that doesn't include the Bible, I will suggest that he or she is a wise Christian indeed who knows just where, exactly, some of those fables are thought to end and Christianity itself begin. The roots of the Talmud, I will argue, find fertile soil in the Torah ("Old Testament"), and what you present as a possible debit or deficit on Islam's side might be, instead, a credit in its favor.

True, fables and commandments of men that turn you from the truth.

Concerning the "stolen" birthright, please permit me to point out that, according to the Biblical narrative, it was not exactly stolen but rather Esau willingly sold it to Jacob, for a pittance, granted, and for a price considerably below wholesale. It was the first-born Esau's "blessing," to which, as I understand, under the Biblically-mandated rights of primogeniture, he was also legally entitled, that was stolen, not only by the reputed hero, Jacob become Israel, but also by complicity from their mother. How was that done, exactly? Let the aged and blind father of both sons, Isaac, explain:

"And he [Isaac] said [to Esau], Thy brother [Jacob] came with subtilty, and hath taken away thy blessing."
(Genesis 27:35)​

The definition of that word, these days spelled "subtlety," in the original Hebrew, is intimately related to this one, said of the serpent:

"Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?"
(Genesis 3:1)​

And thus it was, and is, that, apparently, "by means of deception" Jacob/Israel came to rule. In the Old Testament, as I read it, neither Jacob nor his mother is ever made to repent of this deed.

As a defence attorney, you aren't allowed to say this. In Islam, the prophets are flawless. They aren't capable of "serpetine cunning". God cannot be mocked (Gal 6), Jacob paid for it when his own sons practised deception on him in the false report of the death of his beloved son, Joseph.

One wonders. If it is only apparently shortened, what might be his "mystery name" -that Jacob did, in fact, overpower God, just as he outsmarted his father and older brother, by means of "subtlety?" The idea, by means of argumentation instead of deception, in this case, that God can be outsmarted is apparently found in the Talmud. There, it seems, the anthropomorphisms can be so pronounced that God, or what is therein called the "Holy One," is at one point made to not only laugh but also take delight in being defeated by his sons, the Jewish sages. Consider, for example:

"R. Nathan met Elijah [yes, the prophet, according to the footnote] and asked him: What did the Holy One, Blessed be He, do in that hour? — He laughed [with joy], he replied, saying, 'My sons have defeated Me, My sons have defeated Me.'"
Baba Mezi'a 59b​

So I ask. Is this a continuation of the famous, or infamous, wrestling match, or series of matches, wherein it is reported that God himself is sometimes happy to admit defeat? What is it, exactly, in all of this that Islam, and Muslims, are expected to acknowledge and thereby get a credit instead of debit, merit in place of demerit?

Let me just put it this way:
Human histories relate man's achievements, his victories in battle, his success in climbing to worldly greatness. God's history describes man as heaven views him.

 

[Haich]

I think flawless is the wrong word. They did have minor error, like Moses killing a man by accident. However they didn't sin with intention to disobey God. They slipped up because they were human.

God chose the best examples of mankind to represent His message. They had the advantage of divine guidance and each prophet was prepared for his task. We see snippets of their human nature in the Qur'an, but also the divine inspiration that allowed them to stay on the straight path.

 

[Karlysymon]

As Muslims always say, we don't accept everything from Christianity and Judaism.

This event is not mentioned in the Qur'an. You have shown me a verse which says an angel wrestled with God. Your Christian counterparts presented a verse which stated God wrestled with God. So which version do you take? Why are there two readings to Jacob's story?

Iam in agreement with my fellow christians. We say it was God because Jacob named the place Peniel=i have seen God face to face. A later prophet quoted the same thing (Hosea 12:4). I, personally, believe it was Christ, basing also on the 3 visitors to Abraham's tent. The third person that stayed behind, with whom the patriarch pleaded for sodom and gomorrah.

If you believe God came in the form of angel and wrestled with Jacob, how could Jacob, a mere mortal win? It makes no sense to believe in a God who constantly takes human form (or angel form) and interfere with the life of this world. If you really believe God takes forms, you have a incredibly odd and skewed understanding of not only His superemity but what befits him and his grandeur.

This isn't millionaire boss, where the CEO wears a wig and spies on his employees. An interfering God taking human or angel form, to wrestle a man he felt was righteous enough to be a prophet , makes no sense.

Personally, as a Muslim I would read this event as someone who struggled FOR God, not WITH God...

Loved Millionaire boss btw I think God is free to interact with His creation anyway He so chooses as long as its not harmed in way and that His interaction is meant for their highest good. Who are we to say what he can and can't do? Going by what you say, God in His grandeur shouldn't even appear or speak to people in dreams.

Thanks for the responses btw. Since the account isn't in the quran, does that mean you are on the fence with Ibn Kathir?

 

[Haich]

Iam in agreement with my fellow christians. We say it was God because Jacob named the place Peniel=i have seen God face to face. A later prophet quoted the same thing (Hosea 12:4). I, personally, believe it was Christ, basing also on the 3 visitors to Abraham's tent. The third person that stayed behind, with whom the patriarch pleaded for sodom and gomorrah

So you disagree with the verse you posted about an angel wrestling with God?

Interesting, I guess we'll agree to disagree because I don't believe God shapeshifts and transforms into humans...

You know he couldve been metaphorical, no one has seen God face to face.

 

[Haich]

Loved Millionaire boss btw I think God is free to interact with His creation anyway He so chooses as long as its not harmed in way and that His interaction is meant for their highest good. Who are we to say what he can and can't do? Going by what you say, God in His grandeur shouldn't even appear or speak to people in dreams.

Thanks for the responses btw. Since

That is such a Christian response, 'who are we to say what he can or can't do?'

Well we believe he makes it clear in the Qur'an who He is, what He chooses to do and what He chooses not to do. I don't think it's a question of capability but rather status and form. In this realm, we can't see Him or we'd perish from the sight of his Light. We aren't equipped with the biological faculties to see Him or to witness His form...That's why we believe those who believe in Him, will have the privilege to see and speak to Him in the afterlife...

Also, we are his creation and part of the test of this world, is to believe in the unseen through the seen. The seen being, the prophets and books as well as the general phenomenoa around us (Space, nature, earth...etc). This is a test of faith and belief, so for God to keep poking into Earth as a man contradicts this notion.

On top of that, in my opinion anyway, most of the verses used to prove God taking human form, or wrestle with Jacob are ambiguous at best. I can't accept something which can be interpreted in many ways.

If God wants something known, he has always made it clear. I just don't see any clarity in the verses which Christians use to prove God's human nature.

God's human nature has never been part of the message of the prophets of old and this simple break in the line of divine deliverance, as well as the total conjecture in your understanding of the bible, is what deems your book the uninspired utterances of anonymous men, Paul and snippets of Jesus...

By saying God can interact with us in any way He wishes, your nullifying His status as God. A parent and a child have clear boundaries due to the status and power difference and with respect to those differences, there are clear and distinct behaviours and rules in which both parties adhere to. When one oversteps the mark, the relationship is tested and in some cases, changed. With the same premise, we have a relationship with God that has physical boundaries and limitations for reasons which are beyond our understanding and others within our capacity of understanding.

If one decides there are no boundaries and limitations between them and the Creator, then they will deduce that God can take human form. I see this as a misunderstanding or lack of acknowledgement of who God is and also a redefinition of what it means to be a God...

Once one understands their purpose as a human, then they can better appreciate their call in life and the point of their existence.

 

[phipps]

Salvation is a free gift. It does not require one to repent of all their sins (Who can turn from ALL sins?) because if it did, no one would be saved, because we ALL sin.

Actually that is not biblical at all. We are required to repent all our sin and turn away from it all, not some. The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. Salvation is to be saved from our sins. To be able to stop doing, saying and thinking the things that we know are wrong. Jesus died for us to make it possible for us to be saved from all our sins. If we respond and completely surrender to Him, Jesus will take our sin-affected minds and re-create them so that He can live there and take control. We should use Jesus as our example. When He came to live in this world He took our weak fleshly body with its desire and tendency to sin. He showed us that even in the weakness we have its possible to live a godly life. This is what gives us encouragement. Jesus our High Priest in heaven, has lived here on the same terms as we do and He overcame. His victory over sin in the flesh made it possible for us to obey. He showed us that when we convert, our walk changed from flesh to the spirit. Then Christ in us, through the Spirit, imparts victory over sin to our lives. There is power in the gospel to save from every sin. There is provision in the blood of Jesus Christ to atone for and wipe out every sin however dark. Thank God there is power in Christ to enable men to keep God’s commandments and to live above sin. David said, “If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me.” Psalm 66:18. I pray that we all choose to overcome sin and claim His power to help us.

 

[phipps]

That is such a Christian response, 'who are we to say what he can or can't do?'

Well we believe he makes it clear in the Qur'an who He is, what He chooses to do and what He chooses not to do. I don't think it's a question of capability but rather status and form. In this realm, we can't see Him or we'd perish from the sight of his Light. We aren't equipped with the biological faculties to see Him or to witness His form...That's why we believe those who believe in Him, will have the privilege to see and speak to Him in the afterlife...

Also, we are his creation and part of the test of this world, is to believe in the unseen through the seen. The seen being, the prophets and books as well as the general phenomenoa around us (Space, nature, earth...etc). This is a test of faith and belief, so for God to keep poking into Earth as a man contradicts this notion.

On top of that, in my opinion anyway, most of the verses used to prove God taking human form, or wrestle with Jacob are ambiguous at best. I can't accept something which can be interpreted in many ways.

If God wants something known, he has always made it clear. I just don't see any clarity in the verses which Christians use to prove God's human nature.

God's human nature has never been part of the message of the prophets of old and this simple break in the line of divine deliverance, as well as the total conjecture in your understanding of the bible, is what deems your book the uninspired utterances of anonymous men, Paul and snippets of Jesus...

By saying God can interact with us in any way He wishes, your nullifying His status as God. A parent and a child have clear boundaries due to the status and power difference and with respect to those differences, there are clear and distinct behaviours and rules in which both parties adhere to. When one oversteps the mark, the relationship is tested and in some cases, changed. With the same premise, we have a relationship with God that has physical boundaries and limitations for reasons which are beyond our understanding and others within our capacity of understanding.

If one decides there are no boundaries and limitations between them and the Creator, then they will deduce that God can take human form. I see this as a misunderstanding or lack of acknowledgement of who God is and also a redefinition of what it means to be a God...

Once one understands their purpose as a human, then they can better appreciate their call in life and the point of their existence.

I posted my comment by mistake which just quoted you. I have edited it now.

Obviously you are Muslim and do not study the Bible as the word of God. So you miss certain things and its hard to explain certain things to non Christians who are not as well versed in the Bible.

The Angel of the Lord

The phrase "angel of the Lord" is found 68 times in Scripture. Sometimes it applies to Gabriel who appeared to Daniel, Zacharias, and Mary. But Gabriel is called "an" angel of the Lord (Luke 1:11). He is not referred to as "the" angel of the Lord. Remember that he said to Zacharias, "I am Gabriel, who stands in the presence of God," (Luke 1:19). Who is this mighty individual identified as "the angel of the Lord" who performs such prominent roles in the redemption of man?
God the Father created all things through Jesus (Hebrews 1:2; Ephesians 3:9). It is not implausible to assume that if Christ came to earth and became a man in His battle against Satan to save human beings, He might also have in some way identified with the angels to protect them from Satan's evil influence in heaven. In fact, there are several references in Scripture to a mysterious being identified as "the angel of the Lord" before Christ's earthly incarnation. Yet each time He is mentioned, there are clues to His identity. Let's review some of them briefly.

Abraham

God told Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac on mount Moriah. Just as he was about to plunge the dagger into his son of promise, the angel of the Lord stopped him. "And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, 'Abraham, Abraham:' and he said, 'Here am I.' And he said, 'Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me'" (Genesis 22:11, 12).

It is clear that Abraham was offering his son to God and not to a mere angel. "And the angel of the Lord called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, And said, 'By myself have I sworn,' saith the Lord, 'for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: That in blessing I will bless thee, … because thou hast obeyed my voice'" (Genesis 22:15-18). In recounting this experience of Abraham in Acts 3:25, Peter also identifies this "angel of the Lord" who made a covenant with the Patriarch as God. "Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed."

Jacob

While fleeing from his angry brother Esau, Jacob had a dream in which God confirmed the covenant of Abraham to him. After receiving assurance that God would be with him and bring him back safely to his home in Canaan, Jacob vowed to return to God a tithe of all his increase. He set up the stone he had been using for a pil- low and anointed it with oil to solemnize his vow. Then he named the place Beth-el, or house of God, since God had appeared to him there.

Twenty years later, Jacob was on his way back home, not a penniless fugitive, but a wealthy man. God decided to remind Jacob who had really brought him success. Here's how Jacob recounted the story: "And the angel of God spake unto me in a dream, saying, Jacob: And I said, Here am I" (Genesis 31:11). In verse 13, this "angel of God" identifies Himself: "I am the God of Beth-el, where thou anointedst the pillar, and where thou vowedst a vow unto me."

Then, when Jacob wrestled with a heavenly being (Genesis 32:22-32), he was given a new name and blessed him. Jacob called the name of the place Peniel, "For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved" (verse 30). In the New Testament, Jesus is the one who blesses His people and gives them a new name (Matthew 5:3-12; Revelation 2:17). As you can see, it is becoming increas- ingly clear that the angel of the Lord is Jesus Himself.

When Jacob was on his deathbed blessing Joseph's two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, he used the terms "angel" and "God" interchangeably. "God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day, The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads" (Genesis 48:15, 16).

The Scriptures are very clear there is neither a redeemer nor saviour but God. "I, even I, am the LORD, And besides Me there is no saviour; Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer" (Isaiah 43:11, 14). Once again we see that the angel who redeemed Jacob is another name for our Redeemer, Jesus!

Moses

Moses saw a burning bush that was not consumed. "And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush" (Exodus 3:2). Verse 4 identifies this angel: "God called unto him out of the midst of the bush." And in verse 6 He identifies Himself again. "I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." The angel of the Lord identifies Himself as God!


There are many more examples of "the angel of God" in the Old testament. That's how we know it is God Jacob wrestled with. Jacob himself knew it was God and not an angel and moreover he did not die. There is no ambiguity at all but as I'm sure many Christians have told you here, you will not understand the Bible if you don't ask Jesus for understanding. We cannot of ourselves understand the wisdom of the Bible without guidance from God. The Bible says in Ephesians 6:19 that the gospel is a mystery. We can only understand the deep mystery when Jesus reveals it to us. Jesus explains the mystery by revealing Himself in us. His word is vitality to us now and eternal life. John 1:1-5, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not."

 

[Karlysymon]

Oh, yeah, like that's supposed to make some big difference (humor). By the way, court protocol is to turn one's cell phone off before entering and yours just received a loud, incoming call. I could hear it in your purse. And no, that doesn't mean that I was in your purse when I heard it.

Well, yeah

And i'm going to have to play Pilate here; What is truth?(John 18:37-38)

 

[Futility]

Well, yeah

And i'm going to have to play Pilate here; What is truth?(John 18:37-38)

Ill be King Pentheus and ask the same question

 

[Karlysymon]

That is such a Christian response, 'who are we to say what he can or can't do?'

Well we believe he makes it clear in the Qur'an who He is, what He chooses to do and what He chooses not to do. I don't think it's a question of capability but rather status and form. In this realm, we can't see Him or we'd perish from the sight of his Light. We aren't equipped with the biological faculties to see Him or to witness His form...That's why we believe those who believe in Him, will have the privilege to see and speak to Him in the afterlife...

Also, we are his creation and part of the test of this world, is to believe in the unseen through the seen. The seen being, the prophets and books as well as the general phenomenoa around us (Space, nature, earth...etc). This is a test of faith and belief, so for God to keep poking into Earth as a man contradicts this notion.

On top of that, in my opinion anyway, most of the verses used to prove God taking human form, or wrestle with Jacob are ambiguous at best. I can't accept something which can be interpreted in many ways.

If God wants something known, he has always made it clear. I just don't see any clarity in the verses which Christians use to prove God's human nature.

God's human nature has never been part of the message of the prophets of old and this simple break in the line of divine deliverance, as well as the total conjecture in your understanding of the bible, is what deems your book the uninspired utterances of anonymous men, Paul and snippets of Jesus...

By saying God can interact with us in any way He wishes, your nullifying His status as God. A parent and a child have clear boundaries due to the status and power difference and with respect to those differences, there are clear and distinct behaviours and rules in which both parties adhere to. When one oversteps the mark, the relationship is tested and in some cases, changed. With the same premise, we have a relationship with God that has physical boundaries and limitations for reasons which are beyond our understanding and others within our capacity of understanding.

If one decides there are no boundaries and limitations between them and the Creator, then they will deduce that God can take human form. I see this as a misunderstanding or lack of acknowledgement of who God is and also a redefinition of what it means to be a God...

Once one understands their purpose as a human, then they can better appreciate their call in life and the point of their existence.

God's ability to interact with His creation anyway He so chooses doesn't nullify His
status as God. He ever remains the Omnipotent, Omnipresent and Omniscient One. I think this is kinda like "men aren't supposed to cry because they are men" view thus God isn't supposed to be this or that because He is God. Most of the descriptions, notably in OT, of our relationship to God employ the image of a father and a child. And its not haphazard because thats the way God wants us to view Him. You'd be suprised at the number of people who, upon becoming parents, reconsidered their relationship with God (@rainerann called it Humility University), because you finally "get" alittle bit of what God goes through with each of us.
CCM (christian contemporary music) has its many flaws but there are times when they get it right:

So for me, its such a tender moment that Abraham has with Christ (Gen 18), pleading that the Cities of the Plain should be spared. Scripture doesn't portray Him as this aloof, otherwordly being that shouldn't "be poking into earth". It just says alot about the Creator and His creation, that despite His grandeur, He isn't inapproachable.

The reason you have a difficult time with God taking on human form (you don't see its necessity) is because of this:

^^ typology unknown to Islam. Only through that, can you understand/find an explanation for Jesus' humanity. God will be or do anything AS LONG AS its meant for man's highest good. If that's what it required to salvage what was lost at the Fall, then why not? And that is love.

The bottom line comes down to one word: love. And love cannot be manifested without self-denial, a willingness to give of oneself, even sacrificially, for the good of others. If someone goes so far as to die willingly for us, we should feel confident of His love. The assurance revealed in Romans 8:31– 39 is really telling us about the kind of God we believe in.

We just understand the problem of sin in completely different ways.

 

[Daciple]

Actually that is not biblical at all. We are required to repent all our sin and turn away from it all, not some.

There is a distinction between Repentance unto Salvation, and Repentance from Sin. The Repentance unto Salvation is to go from unbelief to belief, when one truly acknowledges where they stand before the Lord, that they are a Sinner and deserve Hell, and they go from unbelief to belief in Jesus as God, who died on the Cross from their Sins, who Resurrected 3 days later and ascended to the Father. When someone believes the Gospel and cries out for Salvation, it is inherent that the process of Repentance has happened.

This is the meaning of the word Repent in the Bible.

metanoeó: to change one's mind or purpose
Original Word: μετανοέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: metanoeó
Phonetic Spelling: (met-an-o-eh'-o)
Short Definition: I repent, change my mind
Definition: I repent, change my mind,

Clearly it means to change ones mind, we can also look back in the Old Testament and see that God repents, if repent is an action that means turn from Sin, then it wouldnt make sense that God can Repent.

Ex 32:14 And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

Also do you remember being Lost? Did you care at all about Sin? Did you even acknowledge that Sin was Sin?

Idk about any of you but when I was Lost I didnt believe that Sin was Sin, I didnt care about it, I didnt even consider "not sinning" because I didnt believe there was such thing as Sin. It was also impossible for me to "turn" from Sin, because I was Lost.

What do you think causes someone to "turn from Sin"? I believe the only way anyone can ever "turn from Sin" is by the Power of the Holy Spirit. How then if it is by the Power of the Holy Spirit that one "turns from Sin" aka Repents from Sin, can a Lost person "Repent from their Sins"?

A Lost person can not and will not ever Repent from their Sins, they however can and do Repent aka change their mind from unbelief in the Gospel to belief in the Gospel and then once they are Born Again and the Holy Spirit dwells in them, then the process of Repenting from Sin will take place, which is going to be a life long process. This is also known as Sanctification and I have seen so many misunderstandings and confusions between Justification and Sanctification. Justification comes from belief in Christ, it is immediate, its inherent in Repentance unto Salvation, then comes Sanctification the process a Christian undergoes where they begin to Repent and turn from Sin and turn closer and resemble Christ more and more. That process is life long and ends either at death or when Christ comes back and we receive our new glorified bodies...

 

[phipps]

There is a distinction between Repentance unto Salvation, and Repentance from Sin. The Repentance unto Salvation is to go from unbelief to belief, when one truly acknowledges where they stand before the Lord, that they are a Sinner and deserve Hell, and they go from unbelief to belief in Jesus as God, who died on the Cross from their Sins, who Resurrected 3 days later and ascended to the Father. When someone believes the Gospel and cries out for Salvation, it is inherent that the process of Repentance has happened.

This is the meaning of the word Repent in the Bible.

metanoeó: to change one's mind or purpose
Original Word: μετανοέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: metanoeó
Phonetic Spelling: (met-an-o-eh'-o)
Short Definition: I repent, change my mind
Definition: I repent, change my mind,

Clearly it means to change ones mind, we can also look back in the Old Testament and see that God repents, if repent is an action that means turn from Sin, then it wouldnt make sense that God can Repent.

Ex 32:14 And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

Also do you remember being Lost? Did you care at all about Sin? Did you even acknowledge that Sin was Sin?

Idk about any of you but when I was Lost I didnt believe that Sin was Sin, I didnt care about it, I didnt even consider "not sinning" because I didnt believe there was such thing as Sin. It was also impossible for me to "turn" from Sin, because I was Lost.

What do you think causes someone to "turn from Sin"? I believe the only way anyone can ever "turn from Sin" is by the Power of the Holy Spirit. How then if it is by the Power of the Holy Spirit that one "turns from Sin" aka Repents from Sin, can a Lost person "Repent from their Sins"?

A Lost person can not and will not ever Repent from their Sins, they however can and do Repent aka change their mind from unbelief in the Gospel to belief in the Gospel and then once they are Born Again and the Holy Spirit dwells in them, then the process of Repenting from Sin will take place, which is going to be a life long process. This is also known as Sanctification and I have seen so many misunderstandings and confusions between Justification and Sanctification. Justification comes from belief in Christ, it is immediate, its inherent in Repentance unto Salvation, then comes Sanctification the process a Christian undergoes where they begin to Repent and turn from Sin and turn closer and resemble Christ more and more. That process is life long and ends either at death or when Christ comes back and we receive our new glorified bodies...

I was talking about repentance from sin as in renouncing sin because we've seen its sinfulness so we turn away from it in heart. We are sorry for our sins, we confess our sins, and should feel a sorrow for the wrongs we have committed enough to turn away from them.

I think this is just about what words we use to mean different things. You see I don't use the word "repentance" when I describe someone accepting the gospel and accepting the gift of salvation from unbelief. I don't have a specific word but I do not use "repentance" to mean that. I agree that repentance from sin is a life long process. Yes, sanctification is the process of the Holy spirit working within us to make us more Holy. Justification is when we accept Jesus as our saviour and He declares us to be forgiven, untainted by the sins we have committed against Him. Some one explains it as "Instead of seeing your filthy rags, God sees the righteousness of His Son in your place, and you are accounted righteousness".

 

[LostCoin]

That is such a Christian response, 'who are we to say what he can or can't do?'

Well we believe he makes it clear in the Qur'an who He is, what He chooses to do and what He chooses not to do. I don't think it's a question of capability but rather status and form. In this realm, we can't see Him or we'd perish from the sight of his Light. We aren't equipped with the biological faculties to see Him or to witness His form...That's why we believe those who believe in Him, will have the privilege to see and speak to Him in the afterlife...

Also, we are his creation and part of the test of this world, is to believe in the unseen through the seen. The seen being, the prophets and books as well as the general phenomenoa around us (Space, nature, earth...etc). This is a test of faith and belief, so for God to keep poking into Earth as a man contradicts this notion.

On top of that, in my opinion anyway, most of the verses used to prove God taking human form, or wrestle with Jacob are ambiguous at best. I can't accept something which can be interpreted in many ways.

If God wants something known, he has always made it clear. I just don't see any clarity in the verses which Christians use to prove God's human nature.

God's human nature has never been part of the message of the prophets of old and this simple break in the line of divine deliverance, as well as the total conjecture in your understanding of the bible, is what deems your book the uninspired utterances of anonymous men, Paul and snippets of Jesus...

By saying God can interact with us in any way He wishes, your nullifying His status as God. A parent and a child have clear boundaries due to the status and power difference and with respect to those differences, there are clear and distinct behaviours and rules in which both parties adhere to. When one oversteps the mark, the relationship is tested and in some cases, changed. With the same premise, we have a relationship with God that has physical boundaries and limitations for reasons which are beyond our understanding and others within our capacity of understanding.

If one decides there are no boundaries and limitations between them and the Creator, then they will deduce that God can take human form. I see this as a misunderstanding or lack of acknowledgement of who God is and also a redefinition of what it means to be a God...

Once one understands their purpose as a human, then they can better appreciate their call in life and the point of their existence.

This reminds me of one of my favorite Bible passages where Moses boldly asks God to allow him to see His glory... and God replies that no man can see His glory and live, but He instead compromises with Moses and hides him in a crevice of a rock and causes the "back" of His glory to pass Moses by (Exodus 33:17-23)

So, it is true that God in His perfect state and glory cannot be seen by sinful humans (for sin cannot stand in the presence of a pure and holy God, it is instantly burned up, just as a fire consumes all that comes into contact with it).... although the Bible does say that in Heaven, once we are free from sin (and you can't enter Heaven if you have any sin that is not atoned and forgiven) we will indeed see the Father in all His glory.

However, you are missing the point.

God the Son CHOSE, as part of His miraculous plan to save His children from the sin we cannot save ourselves from, to be born into humanity and be subject to all that is human (weakness of flesh, temptation), while still remaining fully God. God in Christ Jesus is fully man and fully God simultaneously. A mystery, to be sure, but the Bible teaches this explicitly and Jesus' resurrection from the dead confirms it; for who but God Himself could return from the dead??? Not even the greatest prophets have come back from the dead. The point you are missing is that God HAD to become a man to defeat sin and therefore be the only acceptable substitute for atonement and forgiveness. It was through the first man (Adam) that sin entered the world, and it is through the last man (Jesus) that it was conquered.

You keep focusing on whether or not God would become a man or could become a man, but you are not considering why God would become a man.

1. It was through man that sin entered the world (Adam and Eve)
2. God is just, so there are earthly and spiritual consequences when we break His laws. In the garden of Eden, God pronounced His judgement upon Adam & Eve and ALL their offspring for their disobedience (Genesis 3:14-19). But all is not lost!! At the end of the judgement we see God simultaneously promising that He has a plan to ultimately defeat sin:

14So the LORD God said to the serpent:

“Because you have done this,
cursed are you above all livestock
and every beast of the field!
On your belly will you go,
and dust you will eat,
all the days of your life.
15And I will put enmity between you and the woman,
and between your seed and her seed.
He will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.”​

3. In verse 15 "He" is a direct reference to Jesus Christ, who as Messiah would be sent to live a sinless (perfect) life, then lay it down to defeat sin (crushing its head) once and for all.
4. This is why it makes perfect sense that not only could God become a man, but that He HAD to become a man to pay man's own penalty for bringing sin into the world. God had warned Adam & Eve that should they disobey Him they would "surely die" - Gen. 3:2 (penalty). The only way to satisfy that penalty would be for a perfect, sinless human to say "I have not sinned, therefore I am not under the penalty of death"... obviously no mere human has ever been able to BE perfect and sinless, which is why God Himself had to pay that which we cannot. In this way, the penalty is both PAID and NULLIFIED.

Jesus paid it all, all to Him I owe.

God Himself fulfilled the promise to save His children from their sins... and to do it, He had to enter sinful humanity.

 

[TokiEl]

Salvation is easy.

At least for us.

Jesus did the hard part. All we have to do is believe it to be saved.

Salvation is not a road to walk or a series of tests & trials to overcome.

Salvation is a free gift. It does not require one to repent of all their sins (Who can turn from ALL sins?) because if it did, no one would be saved, because we ALL sin.

Look nobody is forcing you to stop sinning... but if you want to be adopted as sons and daughters of God you must repent and stop sinning.

God Bless.



1 John 3 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

 

[floss]

Look nobody is forcing you to stop sinning... but if you want to be adopted as sons and daughters of God you must repent and stop sinning.

Sorry Toki, if this is what you believed, you are NOT SAVE nor has been BORN AGAIN. If you think salvation is by getting rid of all the sins in your life, I highly doubt you will ever be save. You've probably sinned yesterday, last week and will sin again tomorrow and next week. Don't lie to yourself that somehow you can earn your way into heaven by stop sinning. It take humility to admit you're a sinner and deserved the full penalty of sins in HELL. The ONLY route to salvation is by FAITH + GRACE and will NEVER be faith + works. You need to pray from your heart and let the LORD know only by HIS GRACE you can be save, give Him all that responsibilities regarding your salvation and you will be rejoiced.

Repentance/Stop sinning does not make you sons and daughter of God, ONLY BY FAITH IN CHRIST you can become children of God.

Galatians 3:26 King James Version (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

I hope this is NOT you nor a preacher you follow. Video title is ridiculous and can be debunk easily. I pray the LORD rebuked this man harshly for his heresies.