Dr. William Campbell destroyed by Dr. Zakir Naik on scientific errors in the Bible MUST WATCH!!

Red Sky at Morning

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I'm not sure how that pertains to the exchange you quoted. Perhaps you misunderstood-- and I'll clarify because it is important.

What brings us to the cross-- the fear, the shame, and the bone deep realization of our unworthiness-- is not the vehicle that carries us afterward. The fear and trembling.. the reverence .. hangs on what follows-- that it is God, Himself, who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure. We are told that we have not been given a Spirit of fear, but one of Power, Love and self control.

The enemy would rather weigh us down with the burden of a debt already paid, rendering us ineffective and miserable... but as Paul lamented-- For I delight in the Law of God according to the inward man; but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and making me captive to the law of sin being in my members. O wretched man I am! Who will deliver me out of this body of death? ... he also rejoiced: Thanks be then to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord!

We have not an high priest who is unfamiliar... you know the rest. :)
Said far better than me - I'm jet-lagged in the extreme today!!!
 

elsbet

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But you just they aren't Christians lol!

I give up Red o_O

God would make his message crystal clear to ensure it reached everyone. Confusion isn't part of that message...
No, it isnt.. you're right about that. But where is the confusion? They are not Christians.

Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses do not follow the bible, exclusively-- they have their own set of rules and material that override the gospel. We pray that like the Catholics, they see the Truth in the Gospel in spite of the perversion of their 'religious texts'. But then we pray the same for you. I do, anyway. :D
 

Serveto

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I give up Red o_O

God would make his message crystal clear to ensure it reached everyone. Confusion isn't part of that message...
I am reminded of something my beloved older sister, who knows me too well and who also, thankfully, appreciates and understands my penchant for hyper if at times admittedly myopic analysis, once said when she asked me to read something which she considered spiritually significant and insightful: "Just read it, Serv, and don't get hung up on its meaning." :cool:
 

Red Sky at Morning

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I am reminded of something my beloved older sister, who knows me too well and who also, thankfully, appreciates and understands my penchant for hyper if at times admittedly myopic analysis, once said when she asked me to read something which she considered spiritually significant and insightful: "Just read it, Serv, and don't get hung up on its meaning." :cool:
Actually I employ that thinking with Shakespeare - eventually the penny drops!
 

Haich

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I am reminded of something my beloved older sister, who knows me too well and who also, thankfully, appreciates and understands my penchant for hyper if at times admittedly myopic analysis, once said when she asked me to read something which she considered spiritually significant and insightful: "Just read it, Serv, and don't get hung up on its meaning." :cool:
Shouldn't we challenge and understand the meaning of texts which are supposedly from the Creator?

Until the meaning of a text is clear to me, I can't settle my heart and mind. Ambiguity gives me restless leg syndrome.
 
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You say God loves us, but you paint him to be a deity holding a grudge with no mercy. This perfection you keep rabbiting on about isn't the standard he set. God doesn't expect perfection from us. Where would you say Moses pbuh, a man sent from God will go? He wasn't perfect, he killed a man (by accident) and repented. He didn't believe in Jesus as Jesus pbuh didn't exist. So where will Moses go in your view?

Your narrative of salvation is completely unaligned with the message those prophets came with. So keep quoting from your book, it's full of contradictions.

Decent according to God's standard is someone who strives for God, helps others and worships. Its not just deeds that He looks for. There's a hadith which tells us a prostitute was admitted to paradise for a small act of kindess- feeding a thirsty animal (cat or dog can't remember)

Your faith demands perfection and as a result of this flawed perception, which completely contradicts with the message brought from older prophets, Jesus pbuh is the fall man. He's the easy way out because you can't fathom the idea that one day, you will be before the Creator and he will ask you why you replaced monotheism with polytheism.

He doesn't want us to be perfect not one verse tells us, he wants perfection or expects it. He wants us to tackle our demons and come out strong in this test of life. He's sorting the good people from the bad and He's just. Those who had never heard of His message, due to isolation from mainstream nations or maybe they never understood it, they'll be tried in their own way and this is the knowledge we have. You can't know everything, that's the point, we're not capable of thinking in that capacity...

Finally, no other person will pay for the sin of another. If you do bad and repent genuinely, God says he'll transform those sins into good deeds. This is how merciful He is...but no let's place all our crap on Jesus pbuh, then let's make up a concept called the trinity and never explain it with clarity.

Oh it's fine, just have faith! Yes, very plausible, faith alone will save us.
I am certain that Moses is in Heaven right now. And he knew about Jesus, which is confirmed by Christ as He rebuked the Jews/Pharisees:

For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.”.....John 5:46
Jesus has always existed, and always will. He is the Word of God made flesh, He is NOT a separate god.

Seriously, it is rather annoying having to constantly defend myself & Christianity in general against your slanderous accusations of polytheism.

I worship ONE God, and one God alone.

CHRISTIANS ARE NOT POLYTHEISTS!!

Has it ever occurred to you that just because you don’t understand something, that doesn’t make it untrue?

I know why It has NOTHING to do with our inability to clarify the triune nature of God . ...You don’t understand the Trinity because you do not believe; you are not saved, and you cannot understand a spiritual matter using physical or human wisdom, and you never will.

It is completely spiritual, requires a spiritual application and faith, and lacking salvation means lacking spiritual discernment.

You will never understand it if you do not believe it by faith first.

Jesus came to this wicked world not to be tested by God, but to provide the answer.
 

Serveto

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Shouldn't we challenge and understand the meaning of texts which are supposedly from the Creator?
Yes, I would say absolutely, which is practically verbatim of how I responded to my sister.


I think, and only my individual, unorthodox opinion it is, let that be understood, one thing which is often overlooked, or not mentioned, in these discussions is that, and again we enter the familiar realm of paradox, and I employ an inadequate metaphor, though Christianity's centrifugal message is universal, that is to say that it is given to "whosoever will may come," one of its centripetal messages seems exclusivist, that is to say that its mysteries are withheld from, and incomprehensible to, all except those who receive, or who are, by God's grace, spiritually enabled to receive them (this gives rise to inter-Christian controversies concerning "predestination" and the "elect" of God, but I don't enter the controversy here). Consider, for instance:

"And he [Jesus] said, Unto you [his disciples, I assume] it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand."
(Luke 8:10)

I wonder. In your (and other Muslims') reading and understanding of the Quran, are there comparable ideas to this in Islam? I do remember having read that the Quran, though it does contain some parables, claims to be a clear message, in Arabic, and maybe that clarity is thought to be in contrast to the New Testament sort of preponderance of, or emphasis on, parables. I don't know. At any rate, it seems to me that to teach by means of parable is a markedly different technique than to issue direct, unequivocal instructions (such as the Ten Commandments of Moses).
 
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Red Sky at Morning

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Shouldn't we challenge and understand the meaning of texts which are supposedly from the Creator?

Until the meaning of a text is clear to me, I can't settle my heart and mind. Ambiguity gives me restless leg syndrome.
Haich, you ask a good question that deserves a careful answer.

Here goes.

The discussion that has led to this point involves two logical issues, firstly an absurd premise and second a complex question. Both these issues cloud the answers provided.


An absurd premise can be illustrated by questions like "can God create a rock so heavy he can't lift it", as intended to show the absurdity of God's power. Absurd as God would necessarily be too wise to bother with the conundrum ;-)

The absurd premise in this discussion is the hypothetical genuinely "born again" (as set against emotional decision) Christian. In this premise the hypothetical believer embarks on a speed of evil Hannibal Lectern would be ashamed of and then expects eternal life. Given that genuinely Born Again Christians are indwelt with the Holy Spirit and suffer the conviction of sin and loss of fellowship with the Father till they genuinely repent (I know from bitter experience btw), I doubt our hypothetical Christian is as common as is believed on this forum.

As to the complex question, the importance of works in the life of a believer and the verses that seem to indicate judgement based on works. The first is easier to dig into, the second requires a bit more study.

As regards works, I was thinking of what a seed does, given the parable of the sower. A seed by its very nature grows, once planted and given the right conditions. If some small object resembling a seed is placed in the ground that doesn't grow, you have to ask if it was really a seed and not a pebble as growth is the evidence of the seed. A real Christian yeilds the fruit of the Spirit as they are indwelt with the Spirit. The growth is the evidence of the life in the seed but growth does not give life to the seed.

On the subject of judgement of believers, a distinction must be made between whether their name appears in the Book of Life (which it either is or is not depending on whether you believe the Gospel) and what works you have done which is the judgement of the fruits of our lives (including holiness, faith and love for others). The fruit is tested and judged but this is not the judgement of whether your name in in the Book.

For a fuller and far better explanation than I can offer which goes into some of the more complex verses, I offer you a 3 clips of a series on salvation I listened to years ago that helped the penny drop for me...




These form part of a wider playlist on Salvation that more or less covers everything that gets misunderstood on VCF!!!

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLn37D9Z7GhvqIRsRtOsH9rXC_MwEwffUK

God bless.
 

Haich

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Yes, I would say absolutely, which is practically verbatim of how I responded to my sister.

I think, and only my individual, unorthodox opinion it is, let that be understood, one thing which is often overlooked, or not mentioned, in these discussions is that, and again we enter the familiar realm of paradox, and I employ an inadequate metaphor, though Christianity's centrifugal message is universal, that is to say that it is given to "whosoever will may come," one of its centripetal messages seems exclusivist, that is to say that its mysteries are withheld, incomprehensible, from all except those who receive, or who are, by God's grace, spiritually enabled to receive them (this gives rise to inter-Christian controversies concerning "predestination" and the "elect" of God, but I don't enter the controversy here). Consider, for instance:

"And he [Jesus] said, Unto you [his disciples, I assume] it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand."


I wonder. In your (and other Muslims') reading and understanding of the Quran, are there comparable ideas to this in Islam? I do remember having read that the Quran, though it does contain some parables, claims to be a clear message, in Arabic, and maybe that clarity is thought to be in contrast to the New Testament sort of preponderance of, or emphasis on, parables. I don't know. At any rate, it seems to me that to teach by means of parable is a markedly different technique than to issue direct, unequivocal instructions (such as the Ten Commandments of Moses).
The Qur'an holds parables in the highest esteem. As our creator, God knows how best we receive and internalize informstion. Parables are a way of personalizing and envisioning relatable situations or feelings and God uses those parables so we're equipped to handle similar situations.

Hope you don't mind infographs, but here's a chapter titled The Cave (surah Al Kahf). It's a long chapter, but it details various parables of notable people...
40ebc630dc1358c0d79a657ab894b80e.jpg
Each parable has a moral lesson and a societal lesson, it also allows the thinker to apply certain lessons to their own life. We draw lessons from parables and the emphasis is on what one can learn from said parable, to understand the context of the chapter, the state of the people being mentioned or the characteristics God wants us to adopt or avoid from those in the parables.

Here's another example of parables in the Quran, from Chapter Luqman (The chapter is names after a righteous man called Luqman)

d44d1102a1717ac8ae16e00af3988cee.jpg
The content of Surah Luqman can be summarized briefly in the following instances:

1- The statement of the greatness and importance of the Holy Qur’an concerning the guidance of humankind.
2- The division of human beings into the benevolent and the tyrant, and the statement of their fate.
3- The advice and wise teachings of Luqman to his son.
4- The reasons for the Faith in Origin and Resurrection.
5- The statement of Allah’s particular knowledge, such as: the time of every one’s death and the time of the occurrence of Resurrection.

Not all verses will he applicable to our daily lives but one great lesson one can retrieve is how to raise a God conscious child and how one can deal with their child, in order to sustain a healthy relationship with their offspring.

So I think the Quran and the NT both rely on parables to deliver their message.

As a general rule, we use parables to emphasise important contextual and subject matters, but also to draw relatable lesson and apply them to our lives.

Christians emphasise parables, but there's no clear core message and this is where I find issue. Since there's no clear cut statement from their book, confirming the divinity of Jesus and the Trinitarian stance, one can only assume the ambiguity in their interpretations is a sign God has left them to their confusion and lead them astray, as they've invented a new and entirely separate strand of faith, under the guise of Abrahamimc monotheism. If indeed, their religion is the religion of Abraham, then why are their concepts specific to their books and not present in history prior?

There are many interpolation and conflictions within verses, which aren't explored enough by Christian scholars. To dismiss some verses with 'Jesus was fully man and God' contradicts the very basis of biology. Unless one is a hermaphrodite, how can two separate beings exist in one? God's superemity doesn't allow Him nor His form, to take the role or body of a creation. It's no different to saying God became a tree, to experience the effects of Global warming, but was still God in spirit, only His form changed...

Parables in Islam have various interpretations and lessons and this is fine, we have the Arabic and our scholars are well versed in the grammar, to debate and conjure meaning via the root words used. Christianity doesn't have this luxury and so they rely on various commentators of biblical literature. Each commentator follows a specific denomination so they're likely to disagree on certain aspects...I mean there was a member on here who didn't accept the Pauline doctrine.

Parables are contributers to God's inherent message. The parables can't be used to replace His message and we can't use them as a pinnacle of faith, its just a story.

God's law should be clear and consistent and the foggy nature of the bible is what makes it to me, a book of man and not a book of divine inspiration.
 

phipps

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So your your take on that verse is he was fully God and fully man, at the same time and chose to be full man and repress his Godly powers and rely on The Father for aid?

It just seems like you guys try to justify these contradictions with more contradictions and ignore the bigger picture.

Is Jesus apart from the Father? I thought they were one? This verse clearly uses the term ascribed which doesn't prove Jesus and the Father to have equal status. The ascribed is lower than the ascriber, as the ascribed doesn't posses the full capabilities to exert what they please.

How about the garden of gethsemane? Doesn't Jesus pray to the father? Now I know you'll argue he was fully man at the time and not using his Godly powers, but it clearly depicts an image of Jesus awaiting an answer or response from the Father. If the Godhead is indeed true , wouldn't the image painted be of Jesus already aware of the answer to his prayer?

So this verse https://bible.org/seriespage/70-garden-gethsema and Acts 2:22 both clearly show Jesus doesn't have superior knowledge and doesn't have the knowledge of the unseen. His abilities are limited, pointing to the idea that he was a man. He can't have lived a dualistic existence, choosing to be human whilst being a God.

Even if I entertain this idea, I can't accept Godhead as truth. How can God and Jesus be equal, if they don't both possess the same qualities and knowledge?

There are no contradictions about Jesus. The Bible is very clear that I don't have to justify anything nor am I ignoring anything. Its you who is ignoring what we are saying.

Did you not understand what I wrote about the Godhead? I used simple English, the only English I know. I already explained that the Godhead are three separate and distinct beings who have existed together from eternity past.They are all equally God and are one in nature, character, and purpose. I gave the example of how God talks about marriage in the Bible. He says two shall become one. Are there not two individual and distinct people in the marriage? They have different roles but should be one in nature, character and purpose. That is what makes them one.

Jesus was of a lower status than God the father here on earth because He chose to be for our sakes. Also one of the reasons He came to this world was to show us how to live our lives according to His word. We too should rely on God solely and use Jesus as our example. In order for Jesus' plsn of salvation to work, He had to be fully human to show that His laws were not burdensome to us and we could actually live life the way He did through Him and by His example. He basically switched off His divinity for our sakes. Satan was watching and tempting Jesus to get Him to fail His plan for our salvation. A little slip up and we would all be doomed. Here is part of what I posted before. "If Jesus had failed to overcome the tempter in the same nature we have, and by the same means available to us, the devil would have proven that obedience is indeed an impossible requirement. Satan understood very well that Jesus could not use His divine power to save Himself and to save man at the same time. This is what made the test such a severe and agonizing experience for Christ."

Jesus has superior knowledge of everything because He is God. If you read Luke 22:39-46 you would know He was under a huge burden. A burden such as no one in this world or heaven will ever have to bear. He knew He had to die on the cross for our sins but it weighed so heavy on Him. Taking on the sins of the world is something we can't as humans even begin to fathom. The pressure was too much that in vs 44 it says, "And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground." He sweated blood, that's how much pressure He was under. He asked God the father a question He already knew the answer to. Vs 42 "Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done." He knew there was no other option but to die on the cross. If He did not, we would all be doomed to eternal damnation. Remember this was something that had been planned from the beginning. There are prophecies in the Old testament and New testament about Jesus' coming and the plan of salvation for us all.

Jesus' abilities were limited because He chose them to be for our sake. Because He is God and God can do anything. The problem with you is you limit God's abilities. There is nothing that is impossible with God. Matthew 19:26, "But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible." You may struggle with how it was possible for Jesus who is God to limit himself to live as a human being here on earth, but it is possible because He is God. He did it for our benefit.

John 10:14-18
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

God spoke creation into existence. He created the whole universe and the beings in it. He set the universe running like a watch. He supplies power constantly for seasons and growth. The stars are always in place, day follows night etc. This is all by His ongoing powerful creative upholding word. His greatness is beyond measure that our human wisdon cannot begin to understand that.

Psalms 33:6-9
6 By the word of the Lord were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses.
8 Let all the earth fear the Lord: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him.
9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.

Isaiah 40:15-18
15 Behold, the nations are as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance: behold, he taketh up the isles as a very little thing.
16 And Lebanon is not sufficient to burn, nor the beasts thereof sufficient for a burnt offering.
17 All nations before him are as nothing; and they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.
18 To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto him?

Isaiah 55:8-9
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Colossians 1:16
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Romans 1:20
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

I will end with this. They are not my words.

It would be pompous and preposterous to pretend that we understand everything about God. “O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!” (Romans 11:33). If we could completely unpack Him like cracking some genetic code, He would cease to be God.

Nevertheless, there is much about God that is revealed for our blessing. “The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever” (Deuteronomy 29:29). What is revealed is that this teaching of the Godhead must be important to God. The ministry of Jesus both begins and ends with an emphasis on the three persons in the Godhead. The Father, Son, and Spirit are present at Jesus’ baptism and when He ascends to heaven. Jesus commanded His followers to baptize in the name of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

The testimony of Scripture indicates that the Godhead can neither be separated into three Gods nor merged into one person. This three-in-one not only created us, but they love us and devised an amazing plan to save a lost world from sin to restore us to His presence in paradise.

“The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen” (2 Corinthians 13:14).
 
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elsbet

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... just because you don’t understand something, that doesn’t make it untrue?

I know why It has NOTHING to do with our inability to clarify the triune nature of God . ...You don’t understand the Trinity because you do not believe; you are not saved, and you cannot understand a spiritual matter using physical or human wisdom, and you never will.

It is completely spiritual, requires a spiritual application and faith, and lacking salvation means lacking spiritual discernment.

You will never understand it if you do not believe it by faith first.

Jesus came to this wicked world not to be tested by God, but to provide the answer.
... the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him?

But we have the mind of Christ.

1 CORINTHIANS 2:14-16
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Messages
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There are no contradictions about Jesus. The Bible is very clear that I don't have to justify anything nor am I ignoring anything. Its you who is ignoring what we are saying.

Did you not understand what I wrote about the Godhead? I used simple English, the only English I know. I already explained that the Godhead are three separate and distinct beings who have existed together from eternity past.They are all equally God and are one in nature, character, and purpose. I gave the example of how God talks about marriage in the Bible. He says two shall become one. Are there not two individual and distinct people in the marriage? They have different roles but should be one in nature, character and purpose. That is what makes them one.

Jesus was of a lower status than God the father here on earth because He chose to be for our sakes. Also one of the reasons He came to this world was to show us how to live our lives according to His word. We too should rely on God solely and use Jesus as our example. In order for Jesus' plsn of salvation to work, He had to be fully human to show that His laws were not burdensome to us and we could actually live life the way He did through Him and by His example. He basically switched off His divinity for our sakes. Satan was watching and tempting Jesus to get Him to fail His plan for our salvation. A little slip up and we would all be doomed. Here is part of what I posted before. "If Jesus had failed to overcome the tempter in the same nature we have, and by the same means available to us, the devil would have proven that obedience is indeed an impossible requirement. Satan understood very well that Jesus could not use His divine power to save Himself and to save man at the same time. This is what made the test such a severe and agonizing experience for Christ."

Jesus has superior knowledge of everything because He is God. If you read Luke 22:39-46 you would know He was under a huge burden. A burden such as no one in this world or heaven will ever have to bear. He knew He had to die on the cross for our sins but it weighed so heavy on Him. Taking on the sins of the world is something we can't as humans even begin to fathom. The pressure was too much that in vs 44 it says, "And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground." He sweated blood, that's how much pressure He was under. He asked God the father a question He already knew the answer to. Vs 42 "Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done." He knew there was no other option but to die on the cross. If He did not, we would all be doomed to eternal damnation. Remember this was something that had been planned from the beginning. There are prophecies in the Old testament and New testament about Jesus' coming and the plan of salvation for us all.

Jesus' abilities were limited because He chose them to be for our sake. Because He is God and God can do anything. The problem with you is you limit God's abilities. There is nothing that is impossible with God. Matthew 19:26, "But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible." You may struggle with how it was possible for Jesus who is God to limit himself to live as a human being here on earth, but it is possible because He is God. He did for us all.

John 10:14-18
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

God spoke creation into existence. He created the whole universe and the beings in it. He set the universe running like a watch. He supplies power constantly for seasons and growth. The stars are always in place, day follows night etc. This is all by His ongoing powerful creative upholding word. His greatness is beyond measure.

Psalms 33:6-9
6 By the word of the Lord were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses.
8 Let all the earth fear the Lord: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him.
9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.

Isaiah 40:15-18
15 Behold, the nations are as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance: behold, he taketh up the isles as a very little thing.
16 And Lebanon is not sufficient to burn, nor the beasts thereof sufficient for a burnt offering.
17 All nations before him are as nothing; and they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.
18 To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto him?

Isaiah 55:8-9
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Colossians 1:16
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Romans 1:20
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

I will end with this. They are not my words.

It would be pompous and preposterous to pretend that we understand everything about God. “O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!” (Romans 11:33). If we could completely unpack Him like cracking some genetic code, He would cease to be God.

Nevertheless, there is much about God that is revealed for our blessing. “The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever” (Deuteronomy 29:29). What is revealed is that this teaching of the Godhead must be important to God. The ministry of Jesus both begins and ends with an emphasis on the three persons in the Godhead. The Father, Son, and Spirit are present at Jesus’ baptism and when He ascends to heaven. Jesus commanded His followers to baptize in the name of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

The testimony of Scripture indicates that the Godhead can neither be separated into three Gods nor merged into one person. This three-in-one not only created us, but they love us and devised an amazing plan to save a lost world from sin to restore us to His presence in paradise.

“The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen” (2 Corinthians 13:14).
Thanks for your post. You have a gift for putting things over the way I would like to ;-)
 

phipps

Star
Joined
Dec 27, 2017
Messages
4,917
@Haich, I had to post this separately because its long too.

You wrote, "How can God and Jesus be equal, if they don't both possess the same qualities and knowledge?"

They possess the same qualities and knowledge. The Bible makes that clear too.

In the New Testament Jesus is revealed as the Eternal Creator (John 1:1–4). As we compare Scripture definitions for God with the Bible record of Jesus, we see the characteristics of God are also ascribed to Jesus. Note these powerful examples:
  • He is self-existent (John 1:1–4; 14:6); only God is self-existent (Psalm 90:2).
  • Jesus defines Himself as eternal. “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty” (Revelation 1:8).
  • He is, and has, eternal life (1 John 5:11, 12, 20).
  • He is all-powerful (Revelation 1:8).
  • He created all things (John 1:3). “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth” (Genesis 1:1). “For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him” (Colossians 1:16 NKJV).
  • The Father even calls Jesus God. “But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom” (Hebrews 1:8).
  • Jesus is able to forgive sin (Luke 5:20, 21); The Bible says only God can forgive sin (Isaiah 43:25).
  • Jesus accepted worship that according to the Ten Commandments is reserved only for the Almighty (Matthew 14:33). “And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, ‘All hail.’ And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him” (Matthew 28:9). Upon seeing the risen Savior, the converted skeptic, Thomas, confessed, “My Lord and my God!” (John 20:26–29).
  • Even the angels worship Jesus. “And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him” (Hebrews 1:6).
  • The Scriptures also teach that only God knows the thoughts of a man’s heart (1 Kings 8:39). Yet Jesus consistently knew what people were thinking, “for he knew what was in man” (John 2:25). “Nathanael said to Him, ‘How do You know me?’ Jesus answered and said to him, ‘Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you’” (John 1:48 NKJV).
  • Through the Spirit, Jesus is omnipresent. “Lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age” (Matthew 28:20 NKJV). “For I am with you, and no one will attack you to hurt you; for I have many people in this city” (Acts 18:10 NKJV).
  • He has power to give life, and even resurrected Himself. “No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again” (John 10:18). “I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live” (John 11:25).

Therefore, by considering the primary definitions of God, and seeing that Jesus fits every one of those definitions, obviously, Jesus must be eternal God.

This is my last post to you. I pray that you find Jesus and accept His gift of salvation as should we all. God bless and Goodbye.
 
Joined
Mar 30, 2017
Messages
3,870
I was watching this video last night and the info was new for me.
Is true or not?
Will look for the responses from all perspectives with interest.
Is the King James Bible a masonic bible.
This was an interesting video - thanks. The part where they're saying "Jesus" and "God" reminded me of the "Who's on First" skit with Abbot and Costello. As well, it looks like there's some truth in the KJV being masonic:

"James VI of Scotland"

In retrospect, I'm very grateful for my upbringing.
 
Joined
Jan 9, 2018
Messages
1,367
You must understand that you just said that all those who have not heard or read the Gospel of Jesus Christ are in Hell.

And so according to your adamant logic or flint belief all who lived before Jesus Christ and all who lived in remote places of the world in the centuries after Jesus Christ who have not heard nor read the Gospel of Jesus Christ... are in Hell.

One would think that is kinda unfair... and a lot of last days conversations with God would go something like this...


Man: But God you caused me to be born before Jesus Christ and so i could not possibly know about His gospel ??

God: Yea well too bad !!


Another man: I am truly unfortunate that i was born in what is today known as America about 400 years after Jesus Christ as His gospel first reached our shores about a thousand years after i died.

God: Yea unlucky star I guess.
With all due respect, Toki, based on your comments, this verse comes to mind as applicable, based on your works-based false Gospel:

“Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”.....2 Timothy 2:15

That said, Moving on to address your concerns.....

It is rather peculiar to hear you , someone who presents as a Christian, argue: “what about those who never heard the Gospel? It’s not fair that they go to Hell”....That is what the unsaved usually say, not Christians.

I did not come up with this doctrine, however, that is what God’s Word Says:

John 3:
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

According to verse 17, God did NOT send Jesus to condemn anyone, He sent Him to SAVE us, because we have ALREADY condemned OURSELVES through our OWN sins.
According to verse 19 the condemnation is: that light has come into the world...but....men loved darkness rather than light. Who? MEN. People.
Why? Because our deeds are evil, and we don’t want to be reproved ( told we are wrong, that we are unworthy)

God did not, I repeat—did NOT have to send a Saviour at all. The hard truth of the matter is:

GOD COULD HAVE THROWN US ALL INTO HELL & BEEN COMPLETELY JUSTIFIED IN DOING SO.

He owes us nothing.

NONE of us are worthy of Heaven....not you, not me, not ANYBODY except Jesus.

And you really think people have NEVER heard of Jesus? Wrong....the VAST MAJORITY have. He is, over 2,000yrs after His resurrection & ascension, THE MOST FAMOUS/WELL KNOWN figure EVER to tread this earth. And He always will be.

Even during His time, the Gospel was heard throughout the world.

Romans 10:
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?


17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

According to verse 18, the Gospel was spread throughout the entire earth. Every generation has a DUTY to not only teach their children the truth about Jesus Christ, but to tell everyone they can about Him.

Jesus said something important before He ascended:

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.”........Mark 16:15

He commanded us to do it. Yet how many obey? Not many, not enough. So if you really are concerned about people getting saved (and you should be), why don’t you go soul winning?

Give the Gospel to people in remote places, or at the very least, go knock on your neighbors door and show them directly from the Bible how to be saved. Then go across the street and share it with those neighbors.

Every 3 seconds someone dies & goes to Hell.

Stop complaining about how “unfair” it is and DO SOMETHING about it. As Christians, it is our God-given DUTY.

It is the ONLY thing that really matters. It’s the ONLY thing you can do for God that you can take with you when you die.

Everything else is merely hay, wood & stubble and will burn up. Salvation lasts forever.

In the end, Most people are not going to Hell because they never heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ......they are going to Hell because they refuse to believe it, and they cannot blame anyone but themselves.

AC8EBF55-A67A-41F9-A996-805ED9C025C3.jpeg
 

priemier

Rookie
Joined
May 22, 2018
Messages
35
On the trinity and polytheism:

Christianity is a monotheistic religion, one God that consists of three just as Godly aspects/Godheads/Persons.

The best analogy would be Father : Space, Jesus: Matter, and Holy spirit: Time ---to make up one God : Universe. [1×1×1= 1]

Our universe consists of space, time, and matter, just as God consists of the Father, Son, and Holy spirit. Not quite the same as polytheism.
 
Last edited:

priemier

Rookie
Joined
May 22, 2018
Messages
35
You must understand that you just said that all those who have not heard or read the Gospel of Jesus Christ are in Hell.

And so according to your adamant logic or flint belief all who lived before Jesus Christ and all who lived in remote places of the world in the centuries after Jesus Christ who have not heard nor read the Gospel of Jesus Christ... are in Hell.

One would think that is kinda unfair... and a lot of last days conversations with God would go something like this...

Man: But God you caused me to be born before Jesus Christ and so i could not possibly know about His gospel ??

God: Yea well too bad !!

Another man: I am truly unfortunate that i was born in what is today known as America about 400 years after Jesus Christ as His gospel first reached our shores about a thousand years after i died.

God: Yea unlucky star I guess.

Okay so pre-crucifixion there were plenty of prophets and scripture in the Old testament that proclaimed alluded to Jesus' upcoming sacrifice, so this information wasn't exactly hidden from them. The principle was the same as it is now- if one has faith and submits his will/life to serve and worship God, he would be saved.

"This is why the Jews had so many laws, festivals, and sacrifices, which now have all been fulfilled in Christ, the Messiah they were looking towards. It would have been impossible for a Jew to do something without it having reference to the Messiah yet to come."

As for the people who do not get the chance to hear about the gospel-

Consider this verse.

What may be known of God is manifest in them for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse (Romans 1:19,20).

Basically, every human has at least the concept of God in his head. When you look around you, how we have morals, love, beauty (can these arise out of colliding atoms and chaos?)- these all point towards the existence of a Creator. Miraculous phenomena in nature(how the eclipse perfectly lines up, pleasure and consciousness in living beings) also serve as evidence. All men are without excuse. Even children who aren't brought up in a religious environment usually default towards assuming that there's "a big guy in the sky."

Almost all of mankind has some judgement of good and evil, and everyone knows he has done at least one thing wrong in the past.Man also knows that he is going to die.

Once man believes/realizes there's a God, right and wrong, and imminent death , the initial reaction should be the desire to know the answers- know God. And to those who seek Him, Jesus will reveal Himself. Anything else is the refusal on the man's part. There really is no excuse.
 

floss

Star
Joined
Mar 26, 2017
Messages
2,255
With all due respect, Toki, based on your comments, this verse comes to mind as applicable, based on your works-based false Gospel:

“Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”.....2 Timothy 2:15

That said, Moving on to address your concerns.....

It is rather peculiar to hear you , someone who presents as a Christian, argue: “what about those who never heard the Gospel? It’s not fair that they go to Hell”....That is what the unsaved usually say, not Christians.

I did not come up with this doctrine, however, that is what God’s Word Says:

John 3:
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

According to verse 17, God did NOT send Jesus to condemn anyone, He sent Him to SAVE us, because we have ALREADY condemned OURSELVES through our OWN sins.
According to verse 19 the condemnation is: that light has come into the world...but....men loved darkness rather than light. Who? MEN. People.
Why? Because our deeds are evil, and we don’t want to be reproved ( told we are wrong, that we are unworthy)

God did not, I repeat—did NOT have to send a Saviour at all. The hard truth of the matter is:

GOD COULD HAVE THROWN US ALL INTO HELL & BEEN COMPLETELY JUSTIFIED IN DOING SO.

He owes us nothing.

NONE of us are worthy of Heaven....not you, not me, not ANYBODY except Jesus.

And you really think people have NEVER heard of Jesus? Wrong....the VAST MAJORITY have. He is, over 2,000yrs after His resurrection & ascension, THE MOST FAMOUS/WELL KNOWN figure EVER to tread this earth. And He always will be.

Even during His time, the Gospel was heard throughout the world.

Romans 10:
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?


17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

According to verse 18, the Gospel was spread throughout the entire earth. Every generation has a DUTY to not only teach their children the truth about Jesus Christ, but to tell everyone they can about Him.

Jesus said something important before He ascended:

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.”........Mark 16:15

He commanded us to do it. Yet how many obey? Not many, not enough. So if you really are concerned about people getting saved (and you should be), why don’t you go soul winning?

Give the Gospel to people in remote places, or at the very least, go knock on your neighbors door and show them directly from the Bible how to be saved. Then go across the street and share it with those neighbors.

Every 3 seconds someone dies & goes to Hell.

Stop complaining about how “unfair” it is and DO SOMETHING about it. As Christians, it is our God-given DUTY.

It is the ONLY thing that really matters. It’s the ONLY thing you can do for God that you can take with you when you die.

Everything else is merely hay, wood & stubble and will burn up. Salvation lasts forever.

In the end, Most people are not going to Hell because they never heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ......they are going to Hell because they refuse to believe it, and they cannot blame anyone but themselves.

View attachment 13987
AMEN! Some people just doesn’t understand the nature of God. You go against Him, he doesn’t just damned you but your future generation as well. People live in remote place that never heard of JESUS are under the curses of their ancestors. Their ONLY way out is to seek for the TRUTH, then God will send His servants there. If they continue to reject Him, darkness will consume them, ie Japan.

YOUR decision today regarding the Gospel WILL affect your future generation. Either be damn and stay in darkness or let the light of Christ shineth upon your future generation. Make the wise choice before you become a damned reprobate! Your grandchildren’s blood are depending on you.

Deuteronomy 5:9 King James Version (KJV)
9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,
 
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