Dr. William Campbell destroyed by Dr. Zakir Naik on scientific errors in the Bible MUST WATCH!!

[Glossolalien]

1) the story of Jacob wrestling with the man. Is said to be an angel. Google it

the name Israel as "wrestles with God" is misunderstood as it doesn't mean he fights with God (for God sake who would believe such an absurd thing) but that he struggles for God's cause. Kind of like the meaning of jihad or crusade.

2) I really can't reply to each point since they require detailed replies
But Jesus is not God. The trinitarian doctrine is a false and literal understanding of mystical themes in the new testament that developed.
John 1:1 made two seemingly contradictory statements
The Word was with God
And
The Word is God
These two statements are both correct because one refers to God's Trancendence and the other to God's Immanence.
I can fully believe that God is Immanent in the Word/Son but this is not His Trancendence.

3) just to illustrate the extent of your ignorance
The Catholic church was the one who St Augustine mentioned and followed with the trinitarian doctrine.
So even this doctrine is from Rome.

So you believe the Catholic church to be evil and pagan? Good...and so is your belief that came from it.

But I don't even know what point you are making. The whore of Babylon is actually the Jewish nation and the proof is in Jeremiah 2-3, Zechariah 5 and even Jesus said 'jerusalem Jerusalem you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you"

Again this is a topic o have dedicated a lot of time talking about on this forum
So each time a new Christian comes out from under a rock to make these arguments I really don't need to respond each time.e
It shows the extent of ignorance you faux Christians are living in to be wrong on everything all the time.

Why would I google something in the bible that is written in plain English. He wrestled with God not an angel. If I write my heart is with me(the physical one that pumps blood) and my heart is me, then have I made a contradictory statement? No, I haven't and this is basic physical stuff. We are talking about God's makeup, and I don't think man especially in his current fallen state can grasp that. Yet Muslims have the hubris to say that they can define God and God can't define Himself.

John wrote about the trinity well before St. Augustine, so what? The bible was suppressed and corrupted but God preserved His Word despite Satan's best efforts. The whore is the Rome, and that you think it's not illustrates your lack of understanding. The Catholic church never pushed for the biblical gospel, it sold indulgences and hid the word and killed the saints through the inquisitions. Perhaps you should study history instead of weak straw man arguments? I think it's pretty clear why you would change the subject on how logically inconsistent it is that Rome would kill the early church with such ferocity.

If you apply your own meaning to scripture with the intent of reinforcing your own beliefs, then you will never see the truth only a reflection of the darkness inside of you and good luck with that.

 

[AspiringSoul]

I asked you to Google it just to do your research on why it says "wrestled with God" and why it is actually an angel he really wrestled with.

The fact you don't even understand this shows you are lost.
If you really think he wrestled with God. My God what sort of madness is that.
Your theology is just .........


No
The trinity in its original form did not mean Jesus and the holy spirit are fully God.
When you make this statement it has to also be in line with every other statement.
Hence my version of belief on this is consistent sistent with the whole.
I believe God the Father is Trancendent and He is immanent in the Son and holy spirit.
This does not make either the son or holy spirit God by their own power but only in the sense of God being at work in them.
Hence Jesus as the Son doesn't even know when the last hour is. Jesus can do nothing by himself, it is the Father who gives him power...


The Catholic church is not the whore of babylon on account on the contents in Jeremiah 1-3, Zechariah 5, Habakkuk 2 (which is about Babylon but connects with zech 5).
The Catholic church never killed Prophets of God. The apostles of Jesus were killed by Rome..this is true...but they are not apostles of God like the previous Jewish prophets like Jeremiah Zechariah Isaiah Jesus etc.
You are just trying to force this position onto the Catholic church.
The reality is that Martin Luther was the first to say the church is the whore of Babylon. He also literally believed the pope was the antichrist
And his beliefs only succeeded to the extent they were allowed to during king Henry the 8th mood shifts ...
This is a long story in itself but I bet you don't even know half of it. So long story short the protestants stuck to the idea of a Catholic whore of Babylon after Martin Luther and it is only the venom of sectarianism that kept that one going. It has no legitimacy. Martin Luther was a bit of a loon.

Learn something.


As for thinking these are my opinions.
Read Zechariah 5 and Jeremiah 1-3 like I said.
The Jews have a connection to babylon
The Romans don't. In fact Rome didn't even allow usury...but the Jews did.

 

[AspiringSoul]

Hosea 12:4
Yes, he wrestled with the angel and won. He wept and pleaded for a blessing from him. There at Bethel he met God face to face, and God spoke to him--

@Glossolalien please do your research in future.

 

[phipps]

Genesis 32:22-32
Wrestling with God
22 And he arose that night and took his two wives, his two female servants, and his eleven sons, and crossed over the ford of Jabbok. 23 He took them, sent them over the brook, and sent over what he had. 24 Then Jacob was left alone; and a Man wrestled with him until the breaking of day. 25 Now when He saw that He did not prevail against him, He touched the socket of his hip; and the socket of Jacob’s hip was out of joint as He wrestled with him. 26 And He said, “Let Me go, for the day breaks.”
But he said, “I will not let You go unless You bless me!”
27 So He said to him, “What is your name?”
He said, “Jacob.”
28 And He said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel; for you have struggled with God and with men, and have prevailed.”
29 Then Jacob asked, saying, “Tell me Your name, I pray.”
And He said, “Why is it that you ask about My name?” And He blessed him there.
30 So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: “For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.” 31 Just as he crossed over Penuel the sun rose on him, and he limped on his hip. 32 Therefore to this day the children of Israel do not eat the muscle that shrank, which is on the hip socket, because He touched the socket of Jacob’s hip in the muscle that shrank.


Jacob knew that was not an angel but God Himself, that is why he would not let go until he received a blessing from Him.

And after God or His angels have finished dealing with His people in the bible, He does not live them in fear. He leaves them strengthened and comforted spiritually. They feel secure in God. Jacob was a changed man after wrestling with God. It wasn't only his name that was changed.

Sahih Muslim, Book 1, Hadith 301
There came to him the angel and said: Recite, to which he replied: I am not lettered. He took hold of me [the Apostle said] and pressed me, till I was hard pressed; thereafter he let me off and said: Recite. I said: I am not lettered. He then again took hold of me and pressed me for the second time till I was hard pressed and then let me off and said: Recite, to which I replied: I am not lettered. He took hold of me and pressed me for the third time, till I was hard pressed and then let me go and said: Recite in the name of your Lord Who created, created man from a clot of blood. Recite. And your most bountiful Lord is He Who taught the use of pen, taught man what he knew not (al-Qur'an, xcvi. 1-4). Then the Prophet returned therewith, his heart was trembling, and he went to Khadija and said: Wrap me up, wrap me up! So they wrapped him till the fear had left him. He then said to Khadija: O Khadija! what has happened to me? and he informed her of the happening, saying: I fear for myself.

Neither God or His angels will leave His people in such a state of fear unless that person is not of God. No matter what situation God's people find themselves in, they are never afraid. There is nothing to fear for genuine Christians who keep God's commandments and entrust and dedicate their entire lives to Him everyday.

 

[AspiringSoul]

Did u read what I quoted from hosea?

Go back and read.
Silly people. Don't even know their own book

 

[AspiringSoul]

Hosea 12:4
Yes, he wrestled with the angel and won. He wept and pleaded for a blessing from him. There at Bethel he met God face to face, and God spoke to him--

 

[AspiringSoul]

Wow, "Mr Aspiring Soul" is sooooo angry. What in the world is he aspiring to, I wonder?? (Strictly rhetorical question here, so please don't bother answering, A.S.)

Just a small sampling of the type of nasty and childish posts this person specializes in (as seen above). I have read and wondered why others bother to continue to engage after this behavior is a clear pattern. Anyone who responds with petty insults and the oh-so-basic F word (!!) on a discussion board for religion & spiritual topics gets a huge fail in my book, and ranks right up with telemarketers in terms of warranting my time and attention.

And Claire Rousseau obviously hit the nail on the head: for A.S., it's obviously more about prideful bloviating and "dazzling" others with massive dumps of breathless theology which always end with sarcasm and ridicule. Hmmm. Wonder how that's working out in attracting others to your religion?? I have yet to see one response that simply and RESPECTFULLY states beliefs or quotes the Quran without sloppy nastiness clouding the topic.

When watching debate teams, that's when you know which side is losing the debate...anger creeps in and they resort to theatrics to distract from the main point.....

And the main debate ISN'T angels....or caves....or prophets.....or whatever side note you want to exhaustively post 25 paragraphs about to accomplish nothing other than trying to Make. Sure. We. Know. You. Are. Intellectually. Superior. I'm intellectually average - so there; you win!

Since Muslims and Christians both agree there is a God; and we agree there is certainly an eternal afterlife that He controls; the MAIN DEBATE becomes "How do I get in to God's presence/Heaven??" It is really pointless to debate all these other issues, yet I notice that posts about Jesus being the perfect, sinless sacrifice for all those who would accept His gift get basically ignored, while minor topics like angels are dissected with gusto. I can get a doctorate in theology concerning angels in the Quran or the Bible, but I doubt that's going to be much help when I die...it's not like God is going to administer a pop quiz on angels and if I score 90% or better - I'm in!!

Yes, divine revelation is an important topic, but not even THAT is more important than my answer to the following question: (Upon my physical death and my soul returning to God):

God: Why should I let you into My Heaven?​

My Answer = ______________​

As another poster noted.....even a child who cannot truly grasp divine revelation can understand the Christian doctrine that Jesus loves us; and out of His great LOVE for us - and the Father, and His obedience to the Father's plan, He died to pay for our sins (a debt too great for us to pay ourselves). This debate is about love, and which sin solution makes more sense.....NOT whose religion is "superior" (actual quote) or whose intellect is greater, or whose insults are wittier.

All mature and enlightening responses welcome.

Sincerely, A "Non-Faux" Christian

I figured since Claire called me out, i'll answer you

1) My behaviour
I'm a product of the world and far from a saint. I don't come here for dawah and the type who do are copy-paste agents, most are not authentic and their attempts at dawah are ego driven anyway.
I'm pretty genuine in my responses though.

This is a world where the ignorance and lies spread by faux christians, have inspired thousands of christians to join pmc's like blackwater as 'crusaders' .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academi

I know for example there are a few cunts on this forum who have crusader/knights templar images on their display. These type regularly play the nice guy routine but the image tells me they only dream of slaughtering muslims.
So when im responding to 'christians' on this forum, deep down i am responding to certain 'types' who are outright liars, haters and ego driven people..
and so far im proven right even in this thread.

it's also because sometimes the only way to sum up the extent of horse shit im forced to read, is 'What the fuck?'
and then i can proceed with a response.
i guess this is due to lower/mammilian brain impulses. I suppose that means im losing the spiritual battle but arent we all? if you drink coffee to get by, you are in the same condition.

in my opinion it's better to be authentic in a world/era where self-control is nearly impossible due to the extent of triggers. When you try to control it, the brain finds something far worse to indulge in. It's why priests become pedophiles and why many muslims indulge in the worst things despite having religion.
at least in this age.

i suppose a simple 'wtf' or a 'go fuck yourself' is a way to exorcise those demons / blow off steam. i suppose this is a far better solution than driving out those demons much later by effectively murdering 100 innocent pigs!!


2)
When watching debate teams, that's when you know which side is losing the debate...anger creeps in and they resort to theatrics to distract from the main point.....

this isnt hyde park.

those type of debates are bs in my opinion. someone can politely talk 5mins of shit that can take a day to put right.
i saw Ahmad Deedat 'win' many of those type of debates and it made christians worse...
but within that i also spotted many outright lies by the sheikh too.
we now live in a world where those narratives were magnified on a mass scale due to the internet and youtube, so now many millions of muslims only know those views and nothing else. they are so stuck in a narrative they cannot see beyond it.
Many of those Christians in response created anti-islam material and are now the same. Most of the christians on this forum belong in that category.
i think people need to break away from this herd mentality and learn to think for themselves and learn to experience scripture personally.

if someone is going to change their religion because they saw a team 'win' a debate by being polite
God help them lmao


3)
And the main debate ISN'T angels....or caves....or prophets.....or whatever side note you want to exhaustively post 25 paragraphs about to accomplish nothing other than trying to Make. Sure. We. Know. You. Are. Intellectually. Superior. I'm intellectually average - so there; you win!


i didnt care about the main thread topic, the OP is fairly new to islam and has joint the herd.
i was responding to claire and others about their attacks against Gabriel in islam, who they claim is satan.
bigggg claim.


3)
God: Why should I let you into My Heaven?

My Answer = ______________


i know where my conscience lies and wherever that takes me in the next life, ive already accepted it.
if Allah deems that Hell is more suitable for me, no worries.

it's the people who've betrayed their conscience who have to seriously worry imo.

I believe in DivineMercy and all but not in the context of 'that means God will give me paradise". Divine Mercy from God might mean you receive a few slaps along the way.

 

[TokiEl]

This was God’s plan to atone for the sins of the entire world so that through believing the Gospel, the believer receives salvation from the fiery Hell we deserve.

That is today the mainstream message of salvation.

And that fact alone ought to be concerning... as the majority seldom seems to get anything right. What was it John wrote...?


Revelation 12 9"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."



Are there not anybody who can put down in writing what it takes to be saved ?

 

[Claire Rousseau]

Please do explain to me how we deserve a fiery Hell.

Certainly.
It is because we are sinners.
Sin is transgression against God.

The Bible says:

“But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”......Revelation 21:8

*We have all told a lie before, so we are guilty of sin.

All of us have sinned against God, Who is perfect, righteous, just, holy—He CANNOT sin.

Therefore, He cannot allow us (sin) to enter into His Holy Kingdom, because we would only defile it with our stain of sin.

There are two ways God gives us to pay our debt of sin owed to Him:

1. We can pay for it in Hell, by burning eternally. This is how most people will pay for their sins. In fire & brimstone, forever.

OR

2. We can accept God’s blessed gift of salvation. You do NOT have to burn in Hell, and God doesn’t want us to!
He has sent His ONLY BEGOTTEN Son, Jesus Christ, to pay for the sins of the whole world, including mine & yours.



Here’s an excellent article written by a great pastor on salvation:


The Bible Way to Heaven

 

[Claire Rousseau]

That is today the mainstream message of salvation.

And that fact alone ought to be concerning... as the majority seldom seems to get anything right. What was it John wrote...?


Revelation 12 9"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."



Are there not anybody who can put down in writing what it takes to be saved ?

I have many times. So has many others on this forum: floss, elsbet, rainerann, Thunderian, Daciple, JoChris, simhae, several of the newbies & many others.

Salvation comes by God’s grace, through believing/faith in the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

That is what the Bible proclaims, and it is the truth.

That is how anyone/everyone gets saved. Anyone who is saved will testify to it.

God Bless.

 

[Helioform]

This is how most people will pay for their sins. In fire & brimstone, forever.

I am wondering if you can say this with a straight face. Disturbing to say the least that some people in this day and age believe such things.

 

[Haich]

Judgement is with God alone. I'm pretty sure decent people who didn't have a chance to learn about Him, will be given paradise.

 

[Claire Rousseau]

I am wondering if you can say this with a straight face. Disturbing to say the least that some people in this day and age believe such things.

I never said I was happy about it.
I’m not.

But it is the TRUTH, nonetheless & I’m not one to sugarcoat the truth.

One day I will stand before God and give an account for every single thing I’ve said.

God forbid that a man goes to Hell because I knew the truth, experienced the truth, have the testimony of truth, the Spirit of Truth, yet withheld it from him, for fear of man, ridicule, persecution or even death.


It is not me who decided how salvation is offered or received, as I am not God and I did not formulate the way to Heaven.

I did not write the message, I am only trying to deliver it.

If you do not like the rules, please take it up with God, not me.

May God open your eyes to His truth. God Bless.

 

[Violette]

Are there not anybody who can put down in writing what it takes to be saved ?

It’s faith in Christ alone by the grace of God, no one can make you righteous before God but God. It’s not faith plus works (sacraments, penance, baptism, good deeds, blah blah blah). Salvation is the work of God and not man.

 

[phipps]

Judgement is with God alone. I'm pretty sure decent people who didn't have a chance to learn about Him, will be given paradise.

Romans 1:18-20
God’s Wrath on Unrighteousness

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

Romans 2:11-16

For there is no partiality with God.

For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

 

[Claire Rousseau]

Judgement is with God alone. I'm pretty sure decent people who didn't have a chance to learn about Him, will be given paradise.

Not true.

Firstly, “decent”, according to God’s standard is perfection; without spot or blemish.

Nobody reading this qualifies as perfect, because we have ALREADY committed sin.

So what is the punishment for sin, according to God?......


Someone WILL pay for the sins you’ve committed....whether that someone is YOU, or whether it is Jesus Christ (Who, btw, has ALREADY paid for your sins, but unless you BELIEVE that He has, that payment CANNOT be posted to your account), either way...it has to, and WILL be...paid.

To deny the gift He has purchased for you with His own blood, is an issue of pride, arrogance & self-righteousness because you are ultimately telling God: “I don’t want your gift, I want to try to buy salvation for myself (which is impossible). Your gift isn’t good enough for me, I can earn it on my own without you.”

 

[Haich]

Not true.

Firstly, “decent”, according to God’s standard is perfection; without spot or blemish.

Nobody reading this qualifies as perfect, because we have ALREADY committed sin.

So what is the punishment for sin, according to God?......
View attachment 13868

Someone WILL pay for the sins you’ve committed....whether that someone is YOU, or whether it is Jesus Christ (Who, btw, has ALREADY paid for your sins, but unless you BELIEVE that He has, that payment CANNOT be posted to your account), either way...it has to, and WILL be...paid.

To deny the gift He has purchased for you with His own blood, is an issue of pride, arrogance & self-righteousness because you are ultimately telling God: “I don’t want your gift, I want to try to buy salvation for myself (which is impossible). Your gift isn’t good enough for me, I can earn it on my own without you.”

You say God loves us, but you paint him to be a deity holding a grudge with no mercy. This perfection you keep rabbiting on about isn't the standard he set. God doesn't expect perfection from us. Where would you say Moses pbuh, a man sent from God will go? He wasn't perfect, he killed a man (by accident) and repented. He didn't believe in Jesus as Jesus pbuh didn't exist. So where will Moses go in your view?

Your narrative of salvation is completely unaligned with the message those prophets came with. So keep quoting from your book, it's full of contradictions.

Decent according to God's standard is someone who strives for God, helps others and worships. Its not just deeds that He looks for. There's a hadith which tells us a prostitute was admitted to paradise for a small act of kindess- feeding a thirsty animal (cat or dog can't remember)

Your faith demands perfection and as a result of this flawed perception, which completely contradicts with the message brought from older prophets, Jesus pbuh is the fall man. He's the easy way out because you can't fathom the idea that one day, you will be before the Creator and he will ask you why you replaced monotheism with polytheism.

He doesn't want us to be perfect not one verse tells us, he wants perfection or expects it. He wants us to tackle our demons and come out strong in this test of life. He's sorting the good people from the bad and He's just. Those who had never heard of His message, due to isolation from mainstream nations or maybe they never understood it, they'll be tried in their own way and this is the knowledge we have. You can't know everything, that's the point, we're not capable of thinking in that capacity...

Finally, no other person will pay for the sin of another. If you do bad and repent genuinely, God says he'll transform those sins into good deeds. This is how merciful He is...but no let's place all our crap on Jesus pbuh, then let's make up a concept called the trinity and never explain it with clarity.

Oh it's fine, just have faith! Yes, very plausible, faith alone will save us.

 

[Violette]

Does this following verse not apply anymore? As I understand, it is what Peter said had to be done in answer to the question "what shall we do [to be saved]."

"Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."​

(Acts 2:37-38)​

Good question I have to put my thinking cap on for this... it applies but not in the way you’re implying/understanding it. Baptism is the public declaration for ones commitment to Christ that manifests from a spiritual transformation, but it doesn’t cause it. Baptism is one of the first steps for new believers to follow but no one is going to Hell because they weren’t baptized . There’s lots of verses that say who won’t enter heaven but none of them say ‘the nonbaptized’. There is, however, a verse that says ... “For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.” ‭‭I Corinthians‬ ‭1:17‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
I think what causes confusion with the verse you referenced is due to the assumption that ‘for’ means ‘in order to get’ when it actually means ‘because of’. I could reference some verses that use the same Greek word to back that claim up if you wish. Most verses that discuss salvation don’t mention baptism at all. If you go a few verses higher in that same chapter Peter quoted this verse from Joel “And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved.’”
‭‭Acts‬ 2:21 Our sins are washed away by the blood of Christ, baptism water is just symbolic it isn’t going to save anyone’s soul.

 

[Etagloc]

Oh it's fine, just have faith! Yes, very plausible, faith alone will save us.

That doctrine comes from Martin Luther. It was invented so he could be free to do whatever he wanted (such as marrying a nun).

I don't get why people to this day blindly follow his doctrine which was formulated as a justification for him to do whatever he wanted. (E Michael Jones goes into detail about Martin Luther and his doctrine in Degenerate Moderns)

But in any case, that faith without works doctine.... it's a magic pill.

Protestantism is like a magic pill and Islam is like a diet and exercise program.

This is why Islam gets results.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

That doctrine comes from Martin Luther. It was invented so he could be free to do whatever he wanted (such as marrying a nun).

I don't get why people to this day blindly follow his doctrine which was formulated as a justification for him to do whatever he wanted. (E Michael Jones goes into detail about Martin Luther and his doctrine in Degenerate Moderns)

But in any case, that faith without works doctine.... it's a magic pill.

Protestantism is like a magic pill and Islam is like a diet and exercise program.

This is why Islam gets results.

In response, I think this says it better than I could.

https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/at-last-a-pyramid-worth-thinking-about.4210/#post-143459