Dr. William Campbell destroyed by Dr. Zakir Naik on scientific errors in the Bible MUST WATCH!!

[AspiringSoul]

^^
saying God came down as a man...has to be understood according to God's immanence and when it is you realise God is immanent in all things.

The problem is you even think Jesus is the Trancendent God which makes no sense. If he is appearing amongst us he isn't Trancendent.

You guys are too far behind in theological perspective.

 

[LostCoin]

To all these newbies trying to engage with me, sorry but I'm not interested. I have had about 4 newbies quote my posts and try to troll me and every poster says 'I joined this site when i read this comment I've been a lurker for a while...'.

You're clearly trolls and I'm not interested so please refrain from quoting my posts.

Thanks

Okey dokey, then!! I can assure you I'm no troll....and I took the time to answer several of your posts and a couple questions on earlier threads with RESPECTFUL and logical answers...my bad, I sincerely thought the point of your posts was for all to engage, even when we disagree. You asked some questions, I felt I had insightful answers.

From here on out, I will grant your request and not waste my time quoting your posts.

Take care!

 

[JoChris]

Interesting....I have not insulted you, yet you slander....you call me “stupid”, and make false assumptions of what my beliefs are, based solely upon your own misunderstanding.


Where is the “peace” in Islam, Aspiring, because I am certainly not seeing it in you?

You say Jesus is going to “disassociate” with me when He returns?

If you really believe that, you will be quite disappointed, because —-I am ALREADY saved. Sealed unto the day of Redemption, praise be to God through our Savior Christ Jesus.

Ignore any personal comments some Muslims make. They are a distraction tactic to try to make people stop critical (but objective) statements about Islam. You are right on target.

P.S. I know you realise that but that was typed as a reminder to others as well.

 

[LostCoin]

No, we understand it, it is you who refuses to understand, its really not hard to understand, I have watched dozens and been apart of dozens of conversations where every aspect of Christianity has been thoroughly explained to every single Muslim that has ever existed on this board and still all of you put on blinders and act as tho whatever explanation isnt good enough. Not only that but these points have also been explained in laymans terms, in fact watered down that even children could grasp it, yet still somehow Muslims can not for the life of them "comprehend" what is told to them.

Let us be truly honest, the facts are each one of you are not this stupid, I actually value all of your intelligence's higher than the facade you all put on in not grasping or understanding the ideologies presented to you. In other words I think all of you are fully capable and completely understand every point ever argued concerning Christianity, however, in your concrete refusal to accept such ideologies all of you feint to "not understand" what has been said.Instead of being honest and saying yeah that makes total sense, I can see what your Scriptures say and how you come to that conclusion, but I just dont agree with you you act like what is being said is something you are not able to comprehend.

So you can believe that a supposedly illiterate man can write the entire text you hold as holy? You can believe that Mary became pregnant as a virgin? You can supposedly and rationally comprehend this fully, but to believe that God became a man is way beyond any type of comprehension for you?

Women being found pregnant normal and able to comprehend, God choosing to become a man, totally impossible to comprehend?

Nonsense, just as one can not LOGICALLY and FULLY understand and totally comprehend exactly how it is that Mary gave birth to Jesus but was a Virgin, but still 100% believe and accept such a thing can happen (by Faith) one too can believe that God became a Man, even if they can not fully understand exactly how He did it (its called Faith). The same principal is applied in both sitituations, the text we individually deem Holy (you the Quran me the Bible) tells us that somehow Mary who was a virgin gave Birth to Jesus, we accept this by FAITH (because it logically doesnt make sense but we can understand it) and the Bible tells us implicitly that God became a Man (on more than one occasion) and that Jesus is God incarnate. Therefore applying the same principal of FAITH we accept what our Bible tells us, just as you by FAITH accept what the Quran says about Mary.

Also your definition of Faith isnt truly Faith, the Word of God defines it exactly:

Hebrews 11:11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

In other words Faith is accepting something as real and true, even tho you have not seen them yet, by Faith I accept Jesus as God who died on the Cross for my Sins, even tho I didnt actually see it with my own eyes. You can read the rest of that Chapter for more examples of Faith, however I know even if you feint not to understand it, that you actually get everything I am saying. Just like I know you and every Muslim ever to be on this board fully comprehend the Incarnation...

Thanks for this insightful post. I joined these discussions with a genuine interest in sharing my Christian faith (without being condescending or insulting) and also to be able to ask questions to understand others' points of view....particularly Muslims. Despite studying the Bible in depth for many years and also taking a few deep dives into other religions (so I could be knowledgeable about how my faith and theirs differ), I have never really explored much with Islam. From what I have seen in my brief time on these forums, Muslims seem very angry, and almost invariably respond with sarcasm and outright contempt. Perhaps I will not waste my time trying to engage in productive and civil debates if that is the direction they all head. I certainly don't expect we will always (or ever) agree with one another, even after much dialogue takes place, but there seems to be a uniform refusal to even consider the claims of Christianity, and then respond with something logical vs just insults.

My faith teaches me to be patient, to share in love, and not treat the other person as if they are the enemy since they are still God's precious creation, even when we don't agree.

Matthew 22:36-40 New International Version (NIV)

36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”​

I have, however, gained some measure of understanding of a few core doctrines of Islam which is helpful, so I guess the hours I have invested here have not been a total waste!

Peace to all ~

 

[JoChris]

^^
saying God came down as a man...has to be understood according to God's immanence and when it is you realise God is immanent in all things.

The problem is you even think Jesus is the Trancendent God which makes no sense. If he is appearing amongst us he isn't Trancendent.

You guys are too far behind in theological perspective.

From the apostle Paul, an actual eyewitness of Jesus Acts chapter 9 (not a religious theorist 20 centuries later):

1 Corinthians 1: 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

 

[TokiEl]

He was an illiterate man and every word he uttered was taught to Him by Angel Gabriel,

No that was not Gabriel but an impostor.

The Qur'an came to conclude the final message of God.

No the Quran is a counterfeit message not from God.

After Jesus pbuh's death, people took him as a God and his message was distorted by the likes of Paul. There was no way of following the original message Jesus pbuh brought, so it was befitting of God to send a final revelation to mankind.

When the Old Testament foretold when and why God would come then it ought not be up to debate. It's like arguing if the sky is blue or not.

There is a direct line of succession from Jesus and His apostles to their disciples and early church fathers.

Every prophet in your books are talked about in such contempt but the Qur'an emphasises the amazing things they did and how they were steadfast in their prayers. It's not logical for God to send men to spread his message and then fail in their dilervance of His word.

Not so His prophets were highly regarded by God but carnal man can't stand such people as they can't stand God.

Our book is in line with the nature of God depicted in the older texts, you are the ones coming with some confusing book written and compiled by anonymous men. Your book should be called 50 men ft Jesus!

Your book is a series of unchronological childish verses which a teenager could write in an evening. And we know who wrote the Gospels - Mark Matthew Luke and John.

 

[Haich]

No that was not Gabriel but an impostor

So who was it? You think satan promoted monotheism and guidance and revealed it to Mohammed pbuh?

 

[phipps]

NONE is "deserving" of God's love - we have all sinned against Him, and therefore based on the very idea of "deserving" something, we don't. I think where our thinking gets clouded is because we look at it like it's a "scale of sin"...like my lie isn't as bad as your stealing....or at least I have never raped, or murdered, etc. But imagine if you will, God greets you at Heaven's gate, and not only is He wearing pure white, you can see that all of Heaven is pure and unblemished...like white carpets in a living room. Suddenly you realize that not only are your feet covered in mud, but your hands are dirty too and even your clothes are nasty and full of dirt and grime (which of course represents sin).... and all this time, you thought you were "pretty clean"!!!! God looks at you and says "I love you deeply, my child, but you cannot come in to My Kingdom full of the dirt of your sin". Then you look around and Jesus is there, saying, "Hey I have a gift for you....no, you can't pay me for it (prayers and deeds)....I gave all I had to purchase it for you; it is priceless - and besides -your spiritual bank account is too small to ever be able to buy this. Because I and the Father love you so much, We don't want you to spend eternity outside of Heaven....what's in this box is free and is My gift to you, all you have to do is believe I bought it and accept it." Wow, that's way too simple you think, but you decide to accept the box, and in it is a perfect white robe and clean sandals. NOW you can enter God's Kingdom, exchanging what you "thought" were clean clothes for what is ACTUALLY clean, according to God's standards, not yours.

So, in your example above - Christians aren't saved simply because we believe that the Judge is now our King (He is, and always was)...... we are saved because as we stand convicted before the perfect Judge/King, we realize the penalty for conviction is so great that we have no way to pay it (the wages of sin is death, even you can agree to this, it's in the OT)....when suddenly the Judge, after pronouncing sentence stands up and says "Because I love you, I MYSELF will pay the penalty you cannot hope to pay, and I MYSELF will spare you from death."[/QUOTE]


Wow...this is just beautiful and explains clearly how Jesus loves us so much to put upon Himself the sin of the world (my sin) to save me eternally should I believe and accept Him as my personal Saviour. He is our defence lawyer and Judge but doesn't want a single soul to be lost eternally.

 

[phipps]

No that was not Gabriel but an impostor.



Thank you. It could not have possibly been Gabriel who appeared to Mohammed and can I add, there is only one truth and God would not deviate from it. The bible clearly tells us Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. He nor his word will ever change eternally. If God could change His word so easily then why would Jesus have to be crucified for our sins? All he had to do was change His word and we would all be saved.

The angel Gabriel who is not fallen would not say anything that deviates from Jesus being God. After all it is him that appeared to Mary to give her the news of her giving birth to Jesus. I am gong to quote what the angel Gabriel says to Mary in Luke 1:26-39. I hope you don't mind.

26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.
37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.
38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.
39 And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda;


This can't be the same person that appeared to Mohammed. Gabriel is not a fallen angel, so he would not present to anyone a message that deviates from the word of God according to the bible.

 

[Etagloc]

Your book is a series of unchronological childish verses which a teenager could write in an evening.

Bring some Surahs

 

[manama]

The very fact that you think that this earth can contain God's essence into it when God's presence is enough to shatter mountains from fear alone, when the skies are ready to bow down to him is absurd.
Do you really think that this human body which is hardly able to contain soul into it can hold a presence called God?
The latter can be proven wrong by Science but our friendly people of the book aren't fond of something that proves them wrong.

Also stop calling our verses something that teens could right, because let me remind you that our book not only is perfect in its literature and its writing but also "Scientifically accurate". while your book can be proven wrong by a teenager .

 

[manama]

nd we know who wrote the Gospels - Mark Matthew Luke and John.

"allegedly" because you hardly know anything related to your own scripture.


Tfw there is a science based thread but Christians just can't science. I am genuinely sad.

 

[irrationalNinja]

How could an illiterate man with no access to the bible you have today, have copied that verse? You have no leg to stand on, so you just rabbit on.

Mohammed’s wife Kadijah had access to the Christian scriptures (having been raised in a Catholic convent) and appears integral to writing and popularizing the Quran. Additionally, passages/concepts lifted from the Old Testament, New Testament, and Babylonian Talmud (interestingly), show us Mohammed would have had access to religious texts of various religions by which he could craft the tenets that make up Islam. IMHO, the Quran reads like a mixture of pagan, Christian, and Rabbinic teachings that combine to create a pseudo-religious narrative.

 

[Haich]

Mohammed’s wife Kadijah had access to the Christian scriptures (having been raised in a Catholic convent) and appears integral to writing and popularizing the Quran. Additionally, passages/concepts lifted from the Old Testament, New Testament, and Babylonian Talmud (interestingly), show us Mohammed would have had access to religious texts of various religions by which he could craft the tenets that make up Islam. IMHO, the Quran reads like a mixture of pagan, Christian, and Rabbinic teachings that combine to create a pseudo-religious narrative.

Don't chat nonsense. She wasn't a polytheist and she was always a monotheist. Her specific religious beliefs prior to Islam aren't documented, but she never practised Catholicism nor did she pray to the idols of Quraysh. Your argument is popular amongst Christians, but the truth is, the narrative and subject matters in the Qur'an are far more superior than your man-made books. She couldn't have copied from such texts as they aren't in any way, comparable to the style of the Qur'an. I urge you to cross reference both texts but you would need some understanding of Arabic to appreciate the difference. However, just by going on the translations and commentaries, you'll see pretty much zero resemblance to books before it.

One particular quality in Khadijah was quite interesting, probably more so than any of her other qualities mentioned above: She, unlike her people, never believed in nor worshipped idols. A very small number of Christians and Jews lived in Mecca at the time and a fairly large number of Jews lived in Medina in fortified communities, small and large, the largest being Khaybar. Waraqah ibn Nawfal, one of Khadijah's cousins (some say he was her uncle), had embraced Christianity and was a pious monk who believed in the Unity of the Almighty, just as all early Christians did, that is, before the concept of the Trinity crept into the Christian faith, widening the theological differences among the believers in Christ (ع).

 

[Haich]

IMHO, the Quran reads like a mixture of pagan, Christian, and Rabbinic teachings that combine to create a pseudo-religious narrative.

Evidence please. Post the verses you feel sound pagan/Christian/rabbinic.

How can a book which in every chapter references monotheistic themes, be considered pagan centred?

Do you Christians just enjoy talking out of your backside, or are you going to post evidence to back up your points?

Plus, none of you have actually referred to the video. Ill give you an essay question to help structure yiur response.

Muslims claim there are no accurate scientific discussions in the bible. How far do you agree with this statement?
( 24 marks )

 

[Claire Rousseau]

Haha don't give me none of that shit about "peace"
You attacked my religion and effectively said it was satanic...with the dumbest arguments.

Seriously how old are you? You never noticed the book of Daniel? You are claiming to have read the Quan yet don't even know that Daniel the prophet was trembling with fear, pale skinned and full of self doubt when he saw Gabriel appear to him?

It is embarrassing that you only ever had the Bible and you didn't even know this.

Surely before you attacked Islam you should have done your research.
Faux Christianity at its finest.

Yes, angels have a striking, supernatural countenance that causes fear to all humans who encounter them. I get that.

The reason I say this cave entity did not behave as a true angel of God is because
all throughout the Bible, whenever an angel (that was sent by God, that is) appeared unto a person, the FIRST thing the angel said was “Fear not”, or, “Do not be afraid”.

This did NOT occur with Muhammad, so that should be the reader’s first red flag.

Additionally, Muhammad’s OWN first impression of this entity in the cave was NOT that it was an angel of the Lord, but that it was something DEMONIC and that he was afraid he was possessed.

So let us pause to clarify: .....Muhammad encountered an entity in a cave, which caused him to wonder if he was possessed.......TRUE or FALSE?

 

[Claire Rousseau]

I find it ironic that the very people who preach about faith, not just any faith but "Blind" faith go ahead and demand assurance when it comes to Islam. You are ready to believe in something you do not understand, that you can not explain but pass it off as faith when that is not what faith means. Its about trust, you KNOW something and you understand it. Your God has told you what to do and what not to do. If you do your best you have FAITH that you will succeed.
If you wrong and then ask for forgiveness, you have faith that he will forgive you if you want it from the bottom of your heart. That is what faith means.

You have a test and you prepare for it, then you take the test. You have faith that if you had prepared good and you gave the right answers, you will pass. Faith is NOT, not understanding the test subject, not understanding the questions, not understanding what the teacher is saying and just doing whatever then pretending that everyone else will fail and you will pass because the teacher is nice.
Someone else taking your test for you isn't faith either

And this is why

Say, "O My servants who have transgressed against themselves [by sinning], do not despair of the mercy of Allah . Indeed, Allah forgives all sins. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful." - Quran 39:53

is enough for me to consider my "faith" superior to all others.

Your last sentence reveals exactly why you are spiritually blinded from the truth.....PRIDE.

 

[Claire Rousseau]

Your logic was that Islam is from the devil.
You then provided criteria ie
Chronological
Linear story telling
And from a nice and soft angel.

Each one is completely contradicted from the bible.
Therefore you have by the logic in your argument attacked your own religion and called it satanic too.

Unless you can accept you were wrong there.

Have you ever read the Bible??

There are 66 books.

The books follow a sequence....OT: Creation of world, creatures, man, followed by the generations of man. NT: Life of Jesus, His ministry, the Gospel, Paul’s experiences & writings and closes with Revelation....we are currently living in Revelation as we see prophecy unfold before our very eyes.

Obviously that is a VERY brief & condensed summary of the Bible but I have neither the time nor space to cover it all in this post.

At any rate, the Events are sequential.

The same cannot be said about the Quran.

The Quran reads like someone took the looseleaf manuscript, threw it it off the top of a skyscraper and randomly picked up pages & bound the stack into a book.

No offense.

 

[AspiringSoul]

Yes, angels have a striking, supernatural countenance that causes fear to all humans who encounter them. I get that.

The reason I say this cave entity did not behave as a true angel of God is because
all throughout the Bible, whenever an angel (that was sent by God, that is) appeared unto a person, the FIRST thing the angel said was “Fear not”, or, “Do not be afraid”.

This did NOT occur with Muhammad, so that should be the reader’s first red flag.

Additionally, Muhammad’s OWN first impression of this entity in the cave was NOT that it was an angel of the Lord, but that it was something DEMONIC and that he was afraid he was possessed.

So let us pause to clarify: .....Muhammad encountered an entity in a cave, which caused him to wonder if he was possessed.......TRUE or FALSE?

So let's backtrack

Originally you made the claim with this logic in mind
1) it happened in a cave...ooOo spooky...must be demons

I proved you wrong by directly using an example from.thr Bible where a prophet was inspired by God In cave.


2) the angel squeezed him, and later Mohammed trembled with fear and the colour of his face changed..

I proved that wrong too.

So now you're attempting to save face by altering the arguments a little...even though the Bible is in my possession too and I can easily prove you wrong by it.

So what your claiming now is
"Oh no Angels are scary but they always say "fear not" first and didn't to Mohammad.

Is that true?
Genesis 32:1-3
Nope

But let's deal with contexts where the person involved is new to the experience...

So let's begin with Daniel

Daniel 8

15 While I, Daniel, was watching the vision and trying to understand it, there before me stood one who looked like a man. 16 And I heard a man’s voice from the Ulai calling, “Gabriel, tell this man the meaning of the vision.”

17 As he came near the place where I was standing, I was terrified and fell prostrate. “Son of man,” he said to me, “understand that the vision concerns the time of the end.”

18 While he was speaking to me, I was in a deep sleep, with my face to the ground. Then he touched me and raised me to my feet.

19 He said: “I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath, because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end.[c]


wrong again.



Context...
You do realise that Mohammed possessed absolutely no background Information before it happened? Were there people of God around him? Only one and that was his uncle in law who was a Christian. Hence the natural response of Mohammad saw was to visit himmand ask him to tell him..

So far we can see Mohammad was honest....

Having self doubt and fear is a mark of genuine concern and integrity.
Compare to Joseph Smith who's "angel" moroni told him it used to be a man!!!
And Joseph Smith did not fear or question this.

If an angel came to me I would 100% begin with doubt.
There is no magic trick that tells you it is Def an angel from God.
Only truth and faith etc.

Now let's continue with your claim that it is satan..
Remember Claire..Jesus is Inside you...your words..
Jesus inside you
You with me?
Let.me.repeat...jesus is Inside you...and you are saved.


Jesus was accused of exorcising demons in Baals name. When Jesus was confronted with this accusation ...
What truth did Jesus reveal?
"Satan does not drive out satan"
You claim you have read the Qur'an.
Every single chapter of the Qur'an except one
Begins with


https://goo.gl/images/sCycuW

So now logic and theology from Jesus himself is working against you.

So before you flat out got exposed for dissing the Bible indirectly with your shit arguments
And now you are contradicting the logic of Jesus though he lives inside you...


And yes satan appears as an angel of light...like moroni...but the theological truths in religion are our protection against such things
So if a being called Moroni came and said "I'm.an angel" and then "I used to be a bloke called Dave from Skipton" I would be like"mate go fuck yourself"
Whereas you would be like "omg Dave...is that another name for LORD JESUS???"

You do not even know the extent of theology Islam has in angels and jinns.in fact you don't even know the difference between angels of light and jinns made of fire. You call them "fallen angels"
So if satan appears as an angel of light....that makes no sense of he already is an angel.

But in the first experience Mohammad didn't know it was an angel, his first experience.
Such an unforgiving bunch you faux Christians are.
He had self doubt therefore it is Def a demon?

He also became suicidal..
So that means demons too?

Let's read the Bible

Numbers 11:12-15 Moses was in despair because of the complaints of the Israelites whom he was leading. The burden of leadership was too heavy for him to bear. He asked God "If You treat me like this, please kill me here and now

Jeremiah got the blues too

These were men who possessed knowledge too.

Keep trying Claire.

 

[AspiringSoul]

Sorry for the errors...copy pasted it like that and on my phone so can't be bothered editting. You get the gist.