Claire Rousseau
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You don’t need to rely on science or logic to know rats didn’t create the universe, the Bible declares God did, and explains how.
Dr. William Campbell destroyed by Dr. Zakir Naik on scientific errors in the Bible MUST WATCH!!
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LostCoin
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So, I have been lurking here on this board...not new to VC, but new to the forums. This topic captured my curiosity. Total disclaimer: I have never read the Qur'an, so I cannot comment on anything other than what a Muslim might share. Second, I am not interested in debating whose religion is greater, or who among us is more "educated", so I will never comment with an air of superiority, or attempt to "win" the argument. In fact, I have no need to argue at all (I have a son who fills that role quite nicely, lol). I am however, interested in asking/answering questions and speaking to one anther with respect and kindness, not sarcasm and ridicule. Jesus taught that we are to speak the Truth in LOVE...
Haich, above ^^ you said that after Jesus' death, people took him as a god (small g, since you are stating He actually wasn't). The Bible teaches, and other external documents (outside the Bible) witness that Jesus resurrected from the dead after 3 days...which is exactly what He told His followers would happen. Many eyewitness accounts of this. THAT is why "people took him as (G)od", because, obviously only God could raise Himself from the dead. Whether you agree or not, it's historically documented, and THAT'S the only reason the disciples came to believe that Jesus was God...not because it was some sort of popular notion. In fact it was VERY UNpopular, and could get you killed - and actually did, many of the apostles died martyrs' deaths. Keep in mind, the disciples themselves were all pretty much unbelieving that Jesus was God until after His resurrection (hard to argue with that, lol). Even though He Himself taught them that He and the Father were one and the same, they just couldn't grasp it until the final proof (Christ, resurrected) was right there in front of them. Also, the Apostle Paul actually spent half his adult life as a Jewish Sadducee - hunting, persecuting and killing Christians before he met the resurrected Jesus on the road to Damascus and was converted to belief. In fact, he actually left behind a life of power, riches, and prestige to preach the Gospel of Christ to the ends of the earth, which was, again, a VERY DANGEROUS thing to do, and got him thrown in prison dozens of times. Hardly a guy who had any reason to "distort" God's message.
The New Testament books were not compiled by "anonymous men", their authors are well-known and documented. Paul wrote 3/4 of the NT. The interesting thing about your "multiple authors" comment is that even though all 66 books in the Bible were written over the course of thousands of years by 40 different men - from shepherds to kings - and in different languages, no book contradicts the other; the running narrative stays consistent. Think about that. How could this be, other than supernatural inspiration? Which is even more interesting, because by your own depiction, the Quran "builds" on the Bible, yet gives a totally different message, thus demonstrating how hard it would have been for all 40 authors to write separate books about God which are in complete agreement with each other.
Old Testament prophets WERE treated with contempt by the people of their day - because they preached an unpopular message of repentance and obedience to God (kind of like today, lol). But of course, today the books of the prophets included in the OT are certainly venerated by all Bible-reading Christians as important revelations as to God's love, mercy and long suffering with people who constantly turn their backs on Him.
DesertRose
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Looked this up for you.
https://www.islamreligion.com/articles/564/pauline-theology/
https://www.islamreligion.com/articles/564/pauline-theology/
The teachings of Paul in contrast with those of Jesus, and the statements of Christian scholars on this subject.
In the midst of the growing 19th and 20th century awareness of the differences between Trinitarian doctrine and the period of origins, a person might be surprised to find one group who claim to be followers of Christ Jesus reading the following in the Holy Quran:
“O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of God anything but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a Messenger of God, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in God and His Messengers. Do not say “Trinity”: desist: it will be better for you: for God is One God: glory be to Him: (far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs” (Quran 4:171)
And warning:
“O People of the Book! Exceed not in your religion the bounds (of what is proper), trespassing beyond the truth, nor follow the vain desires of people who went wrong in times gone by – who misled many, and strayed (themselves) from the even Way.” (Quran 5:77)
One may wonder what, from the New Testament, separates these two groups by such a vast expanse of understanding. No doubt the key difference which divides Trinitarians from Unitarians, and Christians from Muslims, is Pauline theology. For centuries the argument has been put forth that Trinitarian Christians largely follow Pauline theology more than that of Jesus. This charge is difficult to deny, for Jesus taught the Law of the Old Testament, whereas Paul preached mysteries of faith, in denial of the Law which the prophets had suffered and struggled to convey. In disrespect to thousands of years of revelation conveyed through a long chain of esteemed prophets, and contrary to the teachings of the rabbi Jesus himself, Paul focused not on the life and teachings of Jesus, but upon his death. As Lehmann put it:
“The only thing which Paul considers important is the Jew Jesus’ death, which destroyed all hopes of liberation by a Messiah. He makes the victorious Christ out of the failed Jewish Messiah, the living out of the dead, the son of God out of the son of man.”[1]
More than a few scholars consider Paul the main corrupter of Apostolic Christianity and of the teachings of Jesus:
“What Paul proclaimed as ‘Christianity’ was sheer heresy which could not be based on the Jewish or Essene faith, or on the teaching of Rabbi Jesus. But, as Schonfield says, ‘The Pauline heresy became the foundation of Christian orthodoxy and the legitimate church was disowned as heretical.’”[2]
Lehmann continues:
“Paul did something that Rabbi Jesus never did and refused to do. He extended God’s promise of salvation to the Gentiles; he abolished the law of Moses, and he prevented direct access to God by introducing an intermediary.”[3]
Others elevate Paul to sainthood. Joel Carmichael, who commented as follows, very clearly is not one of them:
“We are a universe away from Jesus. If Jesus came “only to fulfill” the Law and the Prophets; If he thought that “not an iota, not a dot” would “pass from the Law,” that the cardinal commandment was “Hear, O Israel, the Lord Our God, the Lord is one,” and that “no one was good but God”….What would he have thought of Paul’s handiwork! Paul’s triumph meant the final obliteration of the historic Jesus; he comes to us embalmed in Christianity like a fly in amber.”[4]
Many authors have pointed out the disparity in the teachings of Paul and Jesus; the best of them have avoided opinionated commentary and concentrated on simply exposing the elements of difference. Dr. Wrede comments:
“In Paul the central point is a divine act, in history but transcending history, or a complex of such acts, which impart to all mankind a ready-made salvation. Whoever believes in these divine acts – the incarnation, death, and resurrection of a celestial being, receives salvation.
“And this, which to Paul is the sum of religion – the skeleton of the fabric of his piety, without which it would collapse – can this be a continuation or a remoulding of the gospel of Jesus? Where, in all this, is that gospel to be found, which Paul is said to have understood?
“Of that which is to Paul all and everything, how much does Jesus know? Nothing whatever.”[5]
And Dr. Johannes Weiss contributes:
“Hence the faith in Christ as held by the primitive churches and by Paul was something new in comparison with the preaching of Jesus; it was a new type of religion.”[6]
Which theology won the day, and why, and how, are questions left to the analyses of the above authors. Should a person come to recognize that the teachings of Paul and those of Jesus oppose one another, consideration should be given to the question: “If I had to choose between the two, to whom should I give priority -- Jesus or Paul?” The question is so relevant that Michael Hart had the following to say in his scholastic tome, in which he ranks the 100 most influential men of history:
“Although Jesus was responsible for the main ethical and moral precepts of Christianity (insofar as these differed from Judaism), St. Paul was the main developer of Christian theology, its principal proselytizer, and the author of a large portion of the New Testament.”[7]
With regard to Paul’s perspective:
“He does not ask what led to Jesus’ death, he only sees what it means to him personally. He turns a man who summoned people to reconciliation with God into the savior. He turns an orthodox Jewish movement into a universal religion which ultimately clashed with Judaism.”[8]
The three main points where Pauline theology conflicts with that of Jesus are critical -- elements so crucial that deviation from the truth threatens a person’s salvation. In order of importance they rank:
1) The divinity of Jesus alleged by Pauline theology versus the oneness of God taught by Christ Jesus;
2) Justification by faith, as proposed by Paul, versus Old Testament law, as endorsed by Christ Jesus;
3) Jesus having been a universal prophet, as per Paul, versus an ethnic prophet, as per the teachings of Christ Jesus.[9] Interestingly enough, these three points constitute the greatest doctrinal differences separating Christianity not only from Judaism, but also from Islam. Running a theological finger down the backbone of revealed monotheism, Trinitarian Christianity seems to stand out of joint.
To address the first of these points, Jesus is recorded as having taught the oneness of God, as in Mark 12:29:
“Jesus answered him, ‘The first of all the commandments is: “Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.” Jesus reportedly continued with “And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength,” finishing with emphasis upon the initial claim, “This is the first commandment.” (Mark 12:30). Not only did Jesus stress importance by sandwiching his statement between the repeated and emphatic “This is the first commandment,” but the importance of this teaching is equally stressed in Matthew 22:37 and Luke 10:27, and further complemented by the first commandment as recorded in Exodus 20:3 -- “You shall have no other gods before Me.” Jesus conveyed the above teaching from Deuteronomy 6:4-5 (as acknowledged in all reputable Biblical commentaries), yet Pauline theology somehow arrived at concepts which have been extrapolated to support what is now known as the Trinity. One wonders how. Jesus referred to the Old Testament -- what did the Pauline theologians refer to? Significantly absent from the above teaching of Jesus is the association of himself with God. There never was a better time or place, throughout the New Testament, for Jesus to have claimed partnership in divinity, were it true. But he didn’t. He didn’t say, “Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one -- but it’s not quite that simple, so let me explain…”
AspiringSoul
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@Claire Rousseau perhaps you feel some sort of relief to get it off your chest and attack the Quran as you have, but it's okay...i can handle it..
the point you made before about divine revelation and the holy spirit, i showed you how false you were. Even if you try to claim otherwise the merits of my response are unbreakable. Ie you argue that angels are like nice little faeries in a field of daffodils when the bible itself proved you wrong.
Claire, as far as religion goes, your only great job in this lifetime was to read your bible and understand it. The bible, is not a great body of work in terms of it's volume. So you had very little to learn........and you still did so poorly. You failed the exam.
I'm a muslim and I know the bible better than you.
The body of work for what islam has, is vast. The Quran itself..the many hadith that are numbered over millions.
Remember, christians follow the theology and texts of not only the apostles, but the church fathers.
so far Quran and hadith are connecting with the Allah and His messenger SAW specifically. What happens when we start introducing the vast vast vast body of work throughout the history of islam ESP the sufi works. So naturally i have a far bigger perspective than you and it is precisely that, that allows me to see more in the bible than what you do.
you wrote this
as evidenced by the lack of chronological order (God is orderly, and not the author of confusion), repetitiveness, lack of power & majesty, and general spiritual unenlightenment.
beginning with the fact you don't even know the bible as illustrated in my previous post. Do you mean like Genesis where God made all these things and he made the stars later? or when God created humans and later regretted it? or when God played hide and seek with Adam and Eve? do you mean repetitiveness like in the Torah?
Not so orderly or chronological is it?
fyi, the above, is not me speaking against the text, i am applying YOUR level of critique against you.
the subconscious mind is not chronological at all..it jumps from one thing to another, from reality to illusion to illusion to reality. it can replay a minor incident in slow motion over and over again or it can pass over major incidents in no time depending on what side of the bed you woke up on.....and it's disorderly nature is the source of all our madness and disease.
but WHY? why is the mind like that? why can't it just be at peace?
why no faeries and field of daffodils for you? why are humans fighting and constantly creating drama? why are we restless?
it's because the mind wants EVERYTHING and it often cares little about logic/order...
That brings me to the Quran
the Quran means 'recitation' or 'to be read'.
reading the Quran is ultimately about capturing the mind in it's present state, giving it an entirely new narrative which can then be healed by belief in Allah.
listening to it's recitation, yeh i do that for subconscious healing.
fyi every chapter in the Quran has it's own unique style, rythm and sound..how can you appreciate that? you can't...
you stick to your king james bible reading of Deuteronomy though, good luck with that.
the point you made before about divine revelation and the holy spirit, i showed you how false you were. Even if you try to claim otherwise the merits of my response are unbreakable. Ie you argue that angels are like nice little faeries in a field of daffodils when the bible itself proved you wrong.
Claire, as far as religion goes, your only great job in this lifetime was to read your bible and understand it. The bible, is not a great body of work in terms of it's volume. So you had very little to learn........and you still did so poorly. You failed the exam.
I'm a muslim and I know the bible better than you.
The body of work for what islam has, is vast. The Quran itself..the many hadith that are numbered over millions.
Remember, christians follow the theology and texts of not only the apostles, but the church fathers.
so far Quran and hadith are connecting with the Allah and His messenger SAW specifically. What happens when we start introducing the vast vast vast body of work throughout the history of islam ESP the sufi works. So naturally i have a far bigger perspective than you and it is precisely that, that allows me to see more in the bible than what you do.
you wrote this
as evidenced by the lack of chronological order (God is orderly, and not the author of confusion), repetitiveness, lack of power & majesty, and general spiritual unenlightenment.
beginning with the fact you don't even know the bible as illustrated in my previous post. Do you mean like Genesis where God made all these things and he made the stars later? or when God created humans and later regretted it? or when God played hide and seek with Adam and Eve? do you mean repetitiveness like in the Torah?
Not so orderly or chronological is it?
fyi, the above, is not me speaking against the text, i am applying YOUR level of critique against you.
the subconscious mind is not chronological at all..it jumps from one thing to another, from reality to illusion to illusion to reality. it can replay a minor incident in slow motion over and over again or it can pass over major incidents in no time depending on what side of the bed you woke up on.....and it's disorderly nature is the source of all our madness and disease.
but WHY? why is the mind like that? why can't it just be at peace?
why no faeries and field of daffodils for you? why are humans fighting and constantly creating drama? why are we restless?
it's because the mind wants EVERYTHING and it often cares little about logic/order...
That brings me to the Quran
the Quran means 'recitation' or 'to be read'.
reading the Quran is ultimately about capturing the mind in it's present state, giving it an entirely new narrative which can then be healed by belief in Allah.
listening to it's recitation, yeh i do that for subconscious healing.
you stick to your king james bible reading of Deuteronomy though, good luck with that.
AspiringSoul
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@DesertRose please don't start quoting material in order to attack Paul.
If you are a believer than remember in the Quran, Allah says HE made the believers from bani israel who believed in Isa AS victorious/successful over the non-believers.
Christianity was, according to islam itself, the right religion for a long time until it lost the way.
The Quran tells us the story of the Seven sleepers, they lived in the 3rd century AD. Then there is St George in the hadith who also was from the 3rd century.
it's later in the 4th, 5th centuries the christians began to innovate on serious levels and the CATHOLIC church created the trinitarian doctrine.
The only thing about Paul is that the law of Moses was not for gentiles...
and the message of christianity was now being introduced to gentiles and hence they required a way that didnt inc the law of Moses (since it wasnt meant for them).
does this make sense?
Wallahi, as a muslim ive read Paul's materials and held him to scrutiny by what is in the Quran and i am certain he was one of the real apostles of Jesus AS (and this doesnt mean apostle of Allah).
Ibn Ishaq also referred to Paul as one of the apostles of Allah.
In the Quran, Allah tells us HE inspired the disciples to believe. Now paul was not one of the disciples, but the remaining disciples all accepted Paul (detailed in the book of acts).
most Christians on this forum are false christians, they have absolutely nothing to do with the NT. I have tested them so many times on here and found they were clearly lying and covering their tracks. Even paul never said Jesus was God and he clearly seperated them.
i was even highlighting that on here only yesterday.
i imagine it is hard to keep up with much of what's said.
If you are a believer than remember in the Quran, Allah says HE made the believers from bani israel who believed in Isa AS victorious/successful over the non-believers.
Christianity was, according to islam itself, the right religion for a long time until it lost the way.
The Quran tells us the story of the Seven sleepers, they lived in the 3rd century AD. Then there is St George in the hadith who also was from the 3rd century.
it's later in the 4th, 5th centuries the christians began to innovate on serious levels and the CATHOLIC church created the trinitarian doctrine.
The only thing about Paul is that the law of Moses was not for gentiles...
and the message of christianity was now being introduced to gentiles and hence they required a way that didnt inc the law of Moses (since it wasnt meant for them).
does this make sense?
Wallahi, as a muslim ive read Paul's materials and held him to scrutiny by what is in the Quran and i am certain he was one of the real apostles of Jesus AS (and this doesnt mean apostle of Allah).
Ibn Ishaq also referred to Paul as one of the apostles of Allah.
In the Quran, Allah tells us HE inspired the disciples to believe. Now paul was not one of the disciples, but the remaining disciples all accepted Paul (detailed in the book of acts).
most Christians on this forum are false christians, they have absolutely nothing to do with the NT. I have tested them so many times on here and found they were clearly lying and covering their tracks. Even paul never said Jesus was God and he clearly seperated them.
i was even highlighting that on here only yesterday.
i imagine it is hard to keep up with much of what's said.
manama
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yea and that "how" doesn't work for multiple reasons
Claire Rousseau
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God created our 3 dimensional world, but He is not bound by it.
He is infinitely more complex than we are.
Do you agree?
DesertRose
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Dr. Lawrence Brown who wrote the above article has interesting perspectives and books on this subject. There is nothing wrong with providing a different perspective on topics. We are all entitled to reject it or take it on board. I would not want people to reject this message and enter hellfire due to crafty arguments.
I have posted his videos before.
I have posted his videos before.
LostCoin
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OK, I appreciate your willingness to respond, but may I ask that you don't simply look up others' material and then just cut and paste it here? Number one, it is too long to read (I do have a job and a life outside this forum), and number two, it makes it much harder for "you and I" to just have a conversation.
Mr. Lehmann, who you quote above is likely Jewish. If so, then of COURSE he would view Jesus as a failed Messiah. That is the very reason the Jews rejected Christ to begin with, and is still true today. Based on OT writings, they were waiting for the Conquering Messiah to arrive and free them from their occupation, oppression and slavery. Which WILL happen - the Bible teaches that Christ will return and next time around, He will not be the humble servant laying down His life, He will be here to judge the world. Unfortunately, the Jews of the NT missed ALL the significance of the OT sacrifices, which were meant to paint an OBVIOUS picture of the need for atonement for sins and that only an "unblemished" lamb would fit the bill. Jesus came to mankind first as a sacrifice for ALL sins - the "perfect lamb", without sin. Out of His and the Father's great love for us, His children, He laid his life down so that we might believe and be saved. There is nothing arrogant about that! In fact, what more humble thing could one do than to lay their life down for another??
Paul did not contradict OT writings or laws, or anything Jesus said. All throughout the books in the NT that he wrote, he quotes extensively from the OT and from Jesus. I have studied the Bible for over 20 years, and I can assure you that if such contradictions existed, I would never blindly accept them and I would be in the position of questioning and probably abandoning my faith.
Justification by "faith alone, in Christ alone" does not invalidate nor exclude OT laws - it fulfills them. Since Jesus was the only perfect human, and He never sinned, He perfectly fulfilled the law....then laid His life down as the only acceptable payment for those of us who cannot be perfect due to our sinful natures.
The Trinity is such a deep mystery, but not actually that hard to appreciate. It deserves its own topic, but please understand that the Trinity does NOT teach polytheism. The Trinity is ONE God ("Hear O Israel, the Lord your God is ONE), yet He manifests Himself in three forms: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I once took an entire class on this, and still came away with my mind blown. Just as water can be liquid, solid and steam, so the Godhead can also exist as one, yet three distinct personas, all simultaneously. There is the eternal Father, eternally begetting the eternal Son, who in turn is eternally begetting the eternal Holy Spirit. Of course, it is difficult for limited human understanding, but not impossible to grasp at its basic level. Christians DO NOT worship multiple Gods, that is simply not true. Our God is indeed ONE.
Lastly, Jesus did in fact teach that He and the Father were one, and He also taught about the Holy Spirit, so plenty of reference in the NT to the Trinity. The Trinity was absent in the OT, because Jesus and the Holy Spirit are NT doctrines.... save for the famous verse in Genesis 1:26
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness...
Karlysymon
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Matt 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”
To you, is this from the lying pen of the scribes? If not, what exactly did Christ mean, keeping in mind that only God is omnipresent and this obviously predates Nicene? Because if i said the exact same thing, i'd be called out as a lunatic simply because i'm incapable of the claim i'm making.
DesertRose
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Yeah I noticed you all say
that but I am just providing the best argument from the best scholarship I know.Our scholars can not be on all boards and all forums.
Generally I come at this issue from Islamic proofs and scholarship.
I am convinced about the oneness of God based on our own resources.
However, I am aware that there are Muslims who studied these issue and that they have written books and videos on these issues.
I post them as food for thought for those interested in these matters from such a perspective.
Why is that an issue? I seriously do not know! We share resources and articles on different topics on the forum.
For example I post stuff on Geo-engineering. No one elsewhere would say I have to be an expert on every topic we share information on!
This is a forum not a university setting.
As it is.........No one is forcing you to read this atm.
If you have issues with the article please contact him:
https://www.facebook.com/pg/Dr.LaurenceBrown/about/?ref=page_internal
One more thing.
If I do this it is because I am aware of the severity of this offense against our Creator. So I reach out in love to my fellow sentient beings.
This is coming from a place of love not hate nor competition. This relates to heaven and hell for the eternal life.
I will leave the thread to the regular contributors. Take Care.
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manama
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Christians show how flawed trinity is, the minute they give the example of water and its states. Yes water can have three forms but all those forms can NOT exist at the same time but rather transforms into either one or the other. And in the exceptional case called "triple point" which the point where there is optimum temperature for all three forms to exist, all these forms REJECT one another. It becomes a constant BATTLE of the states trying to take over one another.
Why would you give examples for something you don't understand lol
Why would you give examples for something you don't understand lol
LostCoin
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Yeah I noticed you all say
Our scholars can not be on all boards and all forums.
Generally I come at this issue from Islamic proofs and scholarship.
I am convinced about the oneness of God based on our own resources.
However, I am aware that there are Muslims who studied these issue and that they have written books and videos on these issues.
I post them as food for thought for those interested in these matters from such a perspective.
Why is that an issue? I seriously do not know! We share resources and articles on different topics on the forum.
For example I post stuff on Geo-engineering. No one elsewhere would say I have to be an expert on every topic we share information on!
This is a forum not a university setting.
As it is.........No one is forcing you to read this atm.
If you have issues with the article please contact him:
https://www.facebook.com/pg/Dr.LaurenceBrown/about/?ref=page_internal
No, not necessarily "issues" with your resources, I just can't take the time to watch a 30 minute video, PLUS the time to respond here....
As it were, you have certainly studied your Qu'ran, as I have studied my Bible. Therefore, let us simply share what the texts state regarding topics that are relevant to our discussion.
People like to get hung up on the Trinity, but honestly, that is a progression of understanding. It would be like me trying to jump to quantitative analysis and trigonometry without truly understanding addition, subtraction and then multiplication first. So, to jump to the Trinity as a point of contention ignores the "foundational" question: Was Jesus God - or not?? Does human sin require an ultimate atoning sacrifice - or not? Can we simply "be good, do good, pray our sins away"??
I submit that not only did Jesus claim to be God, He lived a sinless life and rose from the dead. I would say those last two points pretty well sum it up. We can argue about what Jesus might have meant when he said "I and the Father are One" or "If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father"... but I don't believe there is any validated material which refutes that Jesus was in fact sinless (even Pilate acknowledged this, and the NT Jews could not bring any substantiated charges against Him). The Bible and even your Qur'an teaches that God is the only one who is without sin. How could it be possible then for a mere man/prophet to be sinless?? Then there is the resurrection. This is a claim unique to Christianity. That our savior rose from the dead. Those two points really illustrate that Jesus could only be God.
LostCoin
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Please see my reference to the eternal Father begetting the eternal Son, who begets the eternal Holy Spirit, to understand that all three forms exist simultaneously, not one after the other. Key word in sentence = eternal, meaning always has/will exist, none were "created".
The water reference is just a simple alliteration for discussion sake, not meant to be taken literally.
The eternal Father has always existed with the eternal Son, and the eternal Holy Spirit, as ONE entity yet three different personas. It is hard for temporal humans to understand, and I get why it becomes a stumbling block for so many. But, like I said - the real question is: what is the true remedy for our sins??? When I die and my soul returns to my pure and holy creator (I call him Jehovah), what will I point to to say that He should let me in to His pure and holy Heaven?? Will I say I prayed three times a day? I did good for others? How do I know that I have prayed enough or done enough to satisfy the penalty for my sin against Him and only Him??
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manama
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What are you saying? You gave the example of water, and that very example goes AGAINST the concept of trinity that you are trying to preach. And thats the only example you or any other Christian here gives.
Then you go on to say that the concept is difficult to understand but easy to grasp which its not considering the very example you gave rejects it lol
LostCoin
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OK, sorry if you find my response unclear: let me try again:
The water reference is just a simple alliteration for discussion sake, not meant to be taken literally. Again, the key word is "eternal". The eternal Father has always existed with the eternal Son, and the eternal Holy Spirit, as ONE entity yet three different personas. It is hard for temporal humans to understand, and I get why it becomes a stumbling block for so many.
But, like I said - the real question is: what is the true remedy for our sins??? When I die and my soul returns to my pure and holy creator (I call him Jehovah), what will I point to to say that He should let me in to His pure and holy Heaven?? Will I say I prayed three times a day? I did good for others? How do I know that I have prayed enough or done enough to satisfy the penalty for my sin against Him and only Him??
manama
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This is where our faiths go against each other once again because unlike you we believe that the Prophets are the perfect most virtuous people among those they are sent to bring to the right path. This is because if you sent a sinner calling our other sinners to good, thats hypocrisy..
I am going to die tomorrow or a few days after or maybe in a few seconds or maybe when i grow old. Then I am going to come back to life, im going to be resurrected like everyone else who died.
That could only mean one thing = D
Death is a concept unique to those who are given life, one who is not born can not die. How can you say "God died" and can not see flaw in that logic.
DesertRose
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Err we have been doing that, dude.
Once again, no one is forcing you to do that. These resources are for all including our lurkers.
This has been discussed before and Prophets are considered rightly guided in Islam.
Please note, that the mission of Prophet Jesus/Isa peace be upon him is as yet unfinished.
In the bible I understand that the Prophets peace be upon them are accused of major sins.
In Islam we believe they are free of major sins but may have fallen into minor sins wherein they were corrected by the Creator as an example for all for us.
“…The belief that the Prophets are free of major sins, but not of minor sins, is the opinion of the majority of Islamic scholars and of all (Muslim) groups… It is the opinion of most mufassireen (commentators on the Qur’an), scholars of hadeeth and fuqaha’ (jurists).”
“They are infallible in conveying the commands and message of Allaah, but they are not infallible in any other regard. They may make mistakes, forget things, or commit minor sins – .......”
Adam’s sin in eating from the tree from which Allaah had forbidden him to eat.
When Dawood (Prophet David peace be upon Him) realized that he had been too quick to judge, without listening to what the second disputant had to say, he hastened to repent: “
For more read it at the resource below.:
https://islamqa.info/en/1684
At any rate, I also I have things to do atm
.1684: Do Prophets sin? Do they need forgiveness? islamqa
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LostCoin
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Jesus WAS born, and he did in fact die, then rose again on the third day. I don't know how much you know of the Bible, but it teaches that Jesus was fully God and fully man, which was necessary because only a man could offer the pay the sin debt of mankind, yet only God Himself, sinless and perfect could achieve paying that debt. Again, a great mystery and one we could spend much time delving into.
The most important question is: how do I pay my sin debt to God and be assured He will let me in to His Heaven?
manama
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The way good repels evil, similarly virtues and good deeds wash away the sins. Not a difficult concept to understand. Then there is God's mercy that he bestows upon us when we know what we are and we beg for his love and his forgiveness. Christians here don't like asking God for forgiveness apparently.
Let me repeat that question to you. What will I say? Imagine there is a really good person who sins here and there but overall is an amazing person, he helps others, tells the truth, does charity. BUT he is not a Christian. Why does he go to hell and you don't? Does he deserve heaven any less than you just because he thinks that God can not be human. Is he not deserving of God's love?
If i were to accept christianity in the next 6 minutes I am suddenly more deserving of heaven than my peers. Isn't that injustice.
Justice gives you things to do and things not to do. When you follow the laws, you are saved and vice versa. If suddenly all courts decided that you can only be saved from jail if you think that the judge is your king or master. Would you call that justice any longer? The concept of virtues and sins don't need to even exist any longer.
Let me ask you the biggest question. Satan has been among the angels, he has interacted with God (as much as was allowed) and he has met all the Prophets, probably understands Bible more than any of us AND has met Jesus p.b.u.h and believes in him too. So is satan saved then? Why?