King David
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Christianity 101 is Paganism 101. Check out Deuteronomy 16:21. Shalom
Could the Antichrist actually be the "Good Guy?"
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MoroccanEyes
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Nah. Nothing is good if it's anti-christ. - From A Muslim. Tehe
rainerann
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Ya...you are totally and completely off....reminds me of when Paul says that they will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths...
Hey Lisa, did you know that what Saul (Paul) said in Galatians 5:23 was actually written by Aristotle and what he wrote in 1 Corinthians 9:24 was written by Plato? Even more, what he wrote in Philippians 3;19 was written in Plato's "Republic" and what he wrote in Galatians 6:8 was written in his work called "Phaedo." These are just a few... If you don't believe me, please look it up for yourself. There are even more pagan plagiarisms than these... (Phil 1:21, 1 Cor 13:12, 1 Thes 5:15, Acts 26:14) to name a few more...
Please try to prove me wrong. Shalom[/QUOTE]
For starters, your theory requires the assumption that this is the way people who believe in the book of Revelation interpret the passage. Your whole theory is based on the presumption of how the prophecy is interpreted by some, and how you have reinterpreted something that cannot be understood completely proving only that many things have not been fulfilled. This is what it means. When they are fulfilled, there will be more understanding.
Then, your theory is presented as fact and as a contradictory opinion to this debated subject. Therefore, your suggestion cannot be considered truth in any sense because it is a theory that is a replicated off of a theory that cannot be confirmed.
I don't believe the rider on the white horse is the antichrist, so no I also don't believe the antichrist will be the good guy either. I think that the rider on the white horse represents the mystery of lawlessness or the authority of God to allow deception to go throughout the world as a challenge to those who believe and persevere to the end. What does this do to your theory if I don't accept that this passage, in particular, is suggesting that the antichrist is the rider on the white horse? This is part of what you are using to support your theory, yes?
I also believe that scriptures used to demonstrate an expectation in the coming Messiah is represented in the book of Revelation by the return of Christ, or the coming of the Messiah for those who don't already believe in Him. Therefore, this is included in my understanding of the prophecy. However, how you are presuming the Messiah will be Michael cannot be understood by your argument at all. Where are you making a connection that the Old Testament is proving that the New Testament is inaccurate about the nature of the antichrist and that he is a good guy? I am not understanding. Christ the Messiah will return because the anointed one did not rebuild according to Daniel 9, which you suggest should prove whether He is the Messiah.
It says He will come when it is built, and the setting of the Gospels suggests that this happened. At best, your theory suggests that the prophecy isn't fulfilled, because it is one of the most confused interpretations I have ever heard, and this usually means something hasn't been fulfilled. Although, He did come according to the Gospels, so there is no conflict with this passage even if you disagree with it. Jeruselum was rebuilt in times of trouble according to history of the time period before Christ came. Then it was destroyed, which it was, as Josephus confirms. Then there have been wars and desolations ever since and we can expect them to continue to the final week. That is why there is the separation between the end of the sixty-two sevens and the final week.
The term antichrist is used to represent someone who rejects Christ. It is understood that the beast of Revelation is someone who will reject Christ. Therefore, he is referred to as the antichrist according to this connection. However, this "antichrist" is more literally referred to as a beast in the book of Revelation and not as an antichrist. This beast is another illustration of Daniel 9:27 where the one who will confirm a covenant with many will do so" on the wing of the temple until the decreed desolation is poured out." This is referred to as the abomination of desolation in Matthew 24. I don't believe this covenant is directed at the Jews even though the sacrifices and offering are cut off, but that this will be a Jew who will cut off the offering and sacrifices the same way King Uzziah tried to burn the incense in the temple in arrogance (2 Chronicles 26:18). Therefore, it will be the final disobedicene, so to speak, that will prove that God was just in His judgement towards Israel.
Although, I quoted my favorite quote of yours throughout this thread because of your brilliant connection between Aristotle and the apostle Paul. I enjoy this most because you use a verse in the book of Galatians to demonstrate Paul's affinity for the writings of Aristotle. Wow! Have you read the book of Galatians?
Also, who would have ever thought that Paul, being a witness to the Gentiles, would speak using things that people could relate with. Who would have ever thought that would be a good idea. Maybe you should try reading "How to Win Friends and Influence People" then you would see that being audience centered is a great way to persuade your audience, not an endeavor to plagiarize a famous Greek philosopher.
I have read large portions of Aristole's book "Physics" and "On the Heavens." I really enjoyed them. They are time-consuming because Aristotle is very long winded, but I forgive him because he didn't have a word processor that allowed him to edit his work quickly and make what he had to say more concise. What he has to say is very valuable and fascinating to compare with the present understanding of the subject. Just brilliant really. If there were 48 hours in a day, I would read all his writings and be the better for it; however, at no time would the writings of Aristotle and the apostle Paul be comparable in intent or purpose. To say one is plagiarizing the other is just a very poor literary analysis.
Ya...you are totally and completely off....reminds me of when Paul says that they will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths...
Hey Lisa, did you know that what Saul (Paul) said in Galatians 5:23 was actually written by Aristotle and what he wrote in 1 Corinthians 9:24 was written by Plato? Even more, what he wrote in Philippians 3;19 was written in Plato's "Republic" and what he wrote in Galatians 6:8 was written in his work called "Phaedo." These are just a few... If you don't believe me, please look it up for yourself. There are even more pagan plagiarisms than these... (Phil 1:21, 1 Cor 13:12, 1 Thes 5:15, Acts 26:14) to name a few more...
Please try to prove me wrong. Shalom
[/QUOTE]For starters, your theory requires the assumption that this is the way people who believe in the book of Revelation interpret the passage. Your whole theory is based on the presumption of how the prophecy is interpreted by some, and how you have reinterpreted something that cannot be understood completely proving only that many things have not been fulfilled. This is what it means. When they are fulfilled, there will be more understanding.
Then, your theory is presented as fact and as a contradictory opinion to this debated subject. Therefore, your suggestion cannot be considered truth in any sense because it is a theory that is a replicated off of a theory that cannot be confirmed.
I don't believe the rider on the white horse is the antichrist, so no I also don't believe the antichrist will be the good guy either. I think that the rider on the white horse represents the mystery of lawlessness or the authority of God to allow deception to go throughout the world as a challenge to those who believe and persevere to the end. What does this do to your theory if I don't accept that this passage, in particular, is suggesting that the antichrist is the rider on the white horse? This is part of what you are using to support your theory, yes?
I also believe that scriptures used to demonstrate an expectation in the coming Messiah is represented in the book of Revelation by the return of Christ, or the coming of the Messiah for those who don't already believe in Him. Therefore, this is included in my understanding of the prophecy. However, how you are presuming the Messiah will be Michael cannot be understood by your argument at all. Where are you making a connection that the Old Testament is proving that the New Testament is inaccurate about the nature of the antichrist and that he is a good guy? I am not understanding. Christ the Messiah will return because the anointed one did not rebuild according to Daniel 9, which you suggest should prove whether He is the Messiah.
It says He will come when it is built, and the setting of the Gospels suggests that this happened. At best, your theory suggests that the prophecy isn't fulfilled, because it is one of the most confused interpretations I have ever heard, and this usually means something hasn't been fulfilled. Although, He did come according to the Gospels, so there is no conflict with this passage even if you disagree with it. Jeruselum was rebuilt in times of trouble according to history of the time period before Christ came. Then it was destroyed, which it was, as Josephus confirms. Then there have been wars and desolations ever since and we can expect them to continue to the final week. That is why there is the separation between the end of the sixty-two sevens and the final week.
The term antichrist is used to represent someone who rejects Christ. It is understood that the beast of Revelation is someone who will reject Christ. Therefore, he is referred to as the antichrist according to this connection. However, this "antichrist" is more literally referred to as a beast in the book of Revelation and not as an antichrist. This beast is another illustration of Daniel 9:27 where the one who will confirm a covenant with many will do so" on the wing of the temple until the decreed desolation is poured out." This is referred to as the abomination of desolation in Matthew 24. I don't believe this covenant is directed at the Jews even though the sacrifices and offering are cut off, but that this will be a Jew who will cut off the offering and sacrifices the same way King Uzziah tried to burn the incense in the temple in arrogance (2 Chronicles 26:18). Therefore, it will be the final disobedicene, so to speak, that will prove that God was just in His judgement towards Israel.
Although, I quoted my favorite quote of yours throughout this thread because of your brilliant connection between Aristotle and the apostle Paul. I enjoy this most because you use a verse in the book of Galatians to demonstrate Paul's affinity for the writings of Aristotle. Wow! Have you read the book of Galatians?
Also, who would have ever thought that Paul, being a witness to the Gentiles, would speak using things that people could relate with. Who would have ever thought that would be a good idea. Maybe you should try reading "How to Win Friends and Influence People" then you would see that being audience centered is a great way to persuade your audience, not an endeavor to plagiarize a famous Greek philosopher.
I have read large portions of Aristole's book "Physics" and "On the Heavens." I really enjoyed them. They are time-consuming because Aristotle is very long winded, but I forgive him because he didn't have a word processor that allowed him to edit his work quickly and make what he had to say more concise. What he has to say is very valuable and fascinating to compare with the present understanding of the subject. Just brilliant really. If there were 48 hours in a day, I would read all his writings and be the better for it; however, at no time would the writings of Aristotle and the apostle Paul be comparable in intent or purpose. To say one is plagiarizing the other is just a very poor literary analysis.
JoChris
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According to a Jew, perhaps.Christianity 101 is Paganism 101. Check out Deuteronomy 16:21. Shalom
Whole chapter: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+16&version=KJV
DO you obey all the other commandments as well?
Do you ever eat bread with yeast? When was the last time you made an animal sacrifice to the Lord as commanded in the Old Testament?
Are you denying Christianity pagan roots and practices?
JoChris
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Yes. Biblical Christianity follows the teachings of the bible.
Sadly church history shows Christianity *became* influenced by Paganism though. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_Paganism
That's strange. Honestly, and I'm not trying to be facetious or anything but I don't know many Christians that read, let alone ANY that have a good understanding of the text.
In fact, the book of the New Testament itself is nothing more than a ball of confusion.
I say the NT only because this is where Christianity itself stems from. It simply means you are a follower of Christ and his message which is the NT.
I personally only follow The Most High, his word, his Law ( OT), and his prophets. He never spoke a word in the NT fyi, but back to what I was saying....
Considering the NT is a ball of confusion full of mysteries, contradictions, false prophets, riddles, and double talk.....how is it possible to follow the teachings ?
Just for the record my last paragraph was FACTS. With that said, I'm not trying to offend anyone, and no one should be offended by TRUTH.
Red Sky at Morning
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I see your issue (I am aware of films like Zeitgeist that make this claim and highly effective rebuttals, eg on reasonsforjesus.com)
Religion (and sometimes borrowed paganism) and the Christian Gospel like wrapping and presents. In honour of the message that is being presented humans like to embellish it to show respect and reverence for the message…
When this is done on a grand scale the trappings can become more noticeable than what they are supposed to contain.
People who have never understood the Gospel look at the wrappers borrowed from culture and history and mistake those things for the message they were intended to enshrine...
JoChris
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Yahda, you're sadly very right. Most people who call themselves Christians have never read through the bible for themselves in their life. There are cultural Christians, and then there are believing Christians. Some call themselves disciples, some born-again, others Spirit-filled - but all have a genuine faith and relationship with the Christian God because they *themselves* - not because of family or social obligations- believe in Jesus Christ.
When I was a Roman Catholic I also found the bible very confusing. It contradicted some of what I had been taught too. I went to old style Roman Catholic schools for my whole schooling. It was after I heard the proper Gospel and became born again the bible made perfect sense to me. It was like going from reading with a faulty torch with near-flat batteries to reading in full sunlight, or with Son-light.
Perhaps you could start a thread where you ask Christians to explain [fill-in-the-gap]?
When I was a Roman Catholic I also found the bible very confusing. It contradicted some of what I had been taught too. I went to old style Roman Catholic schools for my whole schooling. It was after I heard the proper Gospel and became born again the bible made perfect sense to me. It was like going from reading with a faulty torch with near-flat batteries to reading in full sunlight, or with Son-light.
Perhaps you could start a thread where you ask Christians to explain [fill-in-the-gap]?
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Red Sky at Morning
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I agree - I've only been on here a few days and already I can see that intellegent discussion may well be possible here!!!
Debate works best when specific issues are addressed and compound quiestions and rhetorical devices are avoided. Anyone interested in truth, will, I'm sure feel the same way...
Truth has nothing to fear from facts and cross examination!
Edited
I know the word, and have some what of a good understanding ALL PRAISE TO TMH. No one can deny the revelations I made on this forum.
With that being said no offense, but for me, Christians are like vampires. It can be draining when it come to them explaining their scriptures and their understanding of the word. It can be draining trying to enlighten or help Christians. I no longer give energy to the cause.
I grew up in Christianity, and have been around Christians all my life so I know what it's like to be spiritually blind. I also know and have studied the NT.
So if I know for a fact it's a book of confusion....e.g...Jesus is the son of God on one hand, he is God on the other in the same book. Keep the Law, do away with the Law.....if this book support contradictory ideas.....how can I expect someone to explain ?
It will only lead to on going arguments of people using different scriptures from the same goSPELLS to support opposing beliefs.
Every one is right. You got scriptures to support your argument, and the other have scriptures that support his or her arguments.
However no one ever stop to think for a second. They just want to be right in their belief.
Next thing you know months have passed and you are still participating in a never ending argument. Let the old boards be my witness.
I ask that you all use the boards to observe Christians and their beliefs.
I post The Words of TMH. I was known for always giving scriptures to back my claims. I keep it simple. You can receive his words or reject them and most do. Not my problem.
Now while I won't engage Christians.... I will hand a shovel and ask that you all watch the grave being dug. Observe, pay attention, see how much is backed by scriptures, compare with God's words.
If you all could see the last message board....you already know how it will play out. Brick wall after brick wall.
Hell observe yourself, your everyday Christian, your church members and friends.....
Come on now. Something has always told something is not right. Time to take on that voice.
Shalom.
I'm kinda like a vet around here. I was on the last message boards. 3 words OMG.
I know the word, and have some what of a good understanding ALL PRAISE TO TMH. No one can deny the revelations I made on this forum.
With that being said no offense, but for me, Christians are like vampires. It can be draining when it come to them explaining their scriptures and their understanding of the word. It can be draining trying to enlighten or help Christians. I no longer give energy to the cause.
I grew up in Christianity, and have been around Christians all my life so I know what it's like to be spiritually blind. I also know and have studied the NT.
So if I know for a fact it's a book of confusion....e.g...Jesus is the son of God on one hand, he is God on the other in the same book. Keep the Law, do away with the Law.....if this book support contradictory ideas.....how can I expect someone to explain ?
It will only lead to on going arguments of people using different scriptures from the same goSPELLS to support opposing beliefs.
Every one is right. You got scriptures to support your argument, and the other have scriptures that support his or her arguments.
However no one ever stop to think for a second. They just want to be right in their belief.
Next thing you know months have passed and you are still participating in a never ending argument. Let the old boards be my witness.
I ask that you all use the boards to observe Christians and their beliefs.
I post The Words of TMH. I was known for always giving scriptures to back my claims. I keep it simple. You can receive his words or reject them and most do. Not my problem.
Now while I won't engage Christians.... I will hand a shovel and ask that you all watch the grave being dug. Observe, pay attention, see how much is backed by scriptures, compare with God's words.
If you all could see the last message board....you already know how it will play out. Brick wall after brick wall.
Hell observe yourself, your everyday Christian, your church members and friends.....
Come on now. Something has always told something is not right. Time to take on that voice.
Shalom.
JoChris
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Yahda, I have seen the same on other forums and other blogs of all varieties. One side defends their position and attacks the other, the other attacks the other and defends themself. Sometimes there's a stalemate, but usual outcome is that each side is convinced they are still right no matter what the opposition said or showed I. E. proved.
I've contributed on many different subjects and each time it's the same. Call it human pride.
Does that mean people should give up expressing their opinions on any topic/ expressing their beliefs because the other side won't ever openly admit defeat? The truth should be told until there are no hearers left. Society's sunk to the depths it has because no one wants to tell and defend the truth.
I've contributed on many different subjects and each time it's the same. Call it human pride.
Does that mean people should give up expressing their opinions on any topic/ expressing their beliefs because the other side won't ever openly admit defeat? The truth should be told until there are no hearers left. Society's sunk to the depths it has because no one wants to tell and defend the truth.
Red Sky at Morning
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Hi Yada the Vet
Not a long reply here, but what do you believe and why? I know when world views clash they can cause a spin cycle of the usual arguments recycled and fired at one another!
I ask this as a non Vampiric Christian
Not a long reply here, but what do you believe and why? I know when world views clash they can cause a spin cycle of the usual arguments recycled and fired at one another!
I ask this as a non Vampiric Christian
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Red Sky at Morning
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I think you have done your best to take an angle on what I said and make it sound like a Faith commitment blinding me to wider truth. I used to do Judo and we always used the strength of someone’s attack to put them on the ground. I have no interest in 'winning' any debate. Anything true will stand scrutiny. The fact that you are happy to sidestep the 'Case for Christ' dismiss the New Testament at a stroke with the weakest of reasons (sorry but your stance, if in error is of the utmost importance).
You may be a more articulate debater than me, and be able to make a strong case for grass being blue, but what's true is true. You might have it, or me, or neither of us. I wish you well in your journey. You seem very convinced of your interpretation, and I can offer nothing apart from affirming that wiser heads than my own could satisfy your scriptural niggles, if you really wanted to have them satisfied.
Up to you.
12As you enter the house, greet it. 13And if the house is worthy, let your peace come upon it, but if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. 14And if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet when you leave that house or town. 15Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town.
May the Lord bless you.
You may be a more articulate debater than me, and be able to make a strong case for grass being blue, but what's true is true. You might have it, or me, or neither of us. I wish you well in your journey. You seem very convinced of your interpretation, and I can offer nothing apart from affirming that wiser heads than my own could satisfy your scriptural niggles, if you really wanted to have them satisfied.
Up to you.
12As you enter the house, greet it. 13And if the house is worthy, let your peace come upon it, but if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. 14And if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet when you leave that house or town. 15Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town.
May the Lord bless you.
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Lady
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Nice attitude. What else can anyone do but offer a view, a topic and a perspective for another's consideration?
Red Sky at Morning
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Sorry Lady,
I don't intend to be rude but truth is important and sometimes I can't just discuss things of great importance in a dispassionate way. If you agree with 'King David' let me ask you this then, what will the Archangel Michael do when he arrives? What does he expect of you? How (if at all) can he atone for your sin?
Forgive my annoyance, but when someone says something apparently and perhaps literally soul destroying, they run the risk of being asked to clarify and explain their position...
I don't intend to be rude but truth is important and sometimes I can't just discuss things of great importance in a dispassionate way. If you agree with 'King David' let me ask you this then, what will the Archangel Michael do when he arrives? What does he expect of you? How (if at all) can he atone for your sin?
Forgive my annoyance, but when someone says something apparently and perhaps literally soul destroying, they run the risk of being asked to clarify and explain their position...
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King David
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Christianity 101 is Paganism 101. Check out Deuteronomy 16:21. Shalom
Initially it was revealed to me through the Holy Spirit during study. It was evident as I watched what was going on around me in terms of the transhuman agenda and advancements in human cyborg technology. I have searched around and there are others who have also been shown this truth. What I've dsicovered though
The Antichrist is Yahuwah. Shalom
Lady
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Whose words am I quoting in my previous post? Those are Christ's words! I am Jesus Christ's biggest fan because He literally turned my life around when I understood exactly WHO He was!
I hear this Michael theory every few years, so it will fade once again in due time. I am not going to spend time refuting it now.