Why did Jesus have to die? Isn't that just immoral?

[Bacsi]

I said "bitter", that being an oxymoron. To look for a restaurant because you are hungry but deny the "easy answer" of eating contains longing without fulfillment.

I got what you were saying. There is a joy of learning as much as you can learn honestly. There's always much more of what you can't learn. True human progress, IMO, is getting as closer and to as much truth as posdible. So far we aren't doing very well, I think. Maybe it's best we can do.

Eat proper food, not clay or tree bark.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

I got what you were saying. There is a joy of learning as much as you can learn honestly. There's always much more of what you can't learn. True human progress, IMO, is getting as closer and to as much truth as posdible. So far we aren't doing very well, I think. Maybe it's best we can do.

Eat proper food, not paper or tree bark.

As Ecclesiastes says, there is "no end to the reading of books". In our mortality and limitation we can perhaps only get half way to anything.

Why don't you meet Jesus half way, and continue the journey together?

 

[EpistemiX]

It is the difficulty of the temporal explaining the transcendent. As God has attributes both greater and unlike my own on so many levels for which I have no frame of reference "explaining" the Trinity will be hampered by my humanity, not by the nature of the Godhead.

Odd, considering the Children of Israel had never uttered trinitarian concepts before the Roman's molested the faith!

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Odd, considering the Children of Israel had never uttered trinitarian concepts before the Roman's molested the faith!

Have you ever considered that in the OT, people worshipped the "Angel of the Lord" when they encountered Him, yet did not offer worship to other "Angels".

You might almost think that this being had been present from the beginning...

 

[Claire Rousseau]

Christians insist he's God. Jesus never claimed to be God.

1 John 5:
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.


“Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.”...........John 8:14 KJB

 

[lightseeker]

I've yet to see Christians explain the trinity, without confusing each other. This diagram shows that irony better than I can.

Something can have several qualities or aspects at once and still be united. A person has mind, emotions, physical personality - all of them are different and in their own sphere, and united in a single person. God can also be three at once.

 

[Haich]

1 John 5:
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.


“Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.”...........John 8:14 KJB

Lol ok Claire.

Doesn't say Jesus is God. Where did Jesus say word for word 'worship me I am God'.

Please quote Jesus directly, thanks.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

1 John 5:
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.


“Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.”...........John 8:14 KJB

Before someone cries "interpolation" over the verses you highlighted in red they ought to read this...

https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/the-critical-text-criticized.3461/

 

[EpistemiX]

Something can have several qualities or aspects at once and still be united. A person has mind, emotions, physical personality - all of them are different and in their own sphere, and united in a single person. God can also be three at once.

It's still inconsistent with the Old Testament though. Conflicting theology doesn't lend Christianity any epistemic merit! Just because we're used to seeing the elephant in the room now for centuries, doesn't mean mean the elephant can make itself at home!!!

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Lol ok Claire.

Doesn't say Jesus is God. Where did Jesus say word for word 'worship me I am God'.

Please quote Jesus directly, thanks.

A question that has been asked before so worth answering.

Do you believe that given what you read and understand about how Jesus presented himself he would have said such a thing?

As I read it, Jesus did everything to prove who he was without having to spell it out so that people would choose him. This doesn't mean he was being shy, but that God wants willing followers.

The temptation of satan in the wilderness was to reveal his grandeur and command over the hosts of heaven to show who he was. Jesus chose humility instead, and people can choose to believe it reject Him in the same way today as back then.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

It's still inconsistent with the Old Testament though. Conflicting theology doesn't lend Christianity any epistemic merit! Just because we're used to seeing the elephant in the room now for centuries, doesn't mean mean the elephant can make itself at home!!!

 

[Kung Fu]

Before someone cries "interpolation" over the verses you highlighted in red they ought to read this...

https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/the-critical-text-criticized.3461/

The verses are an interpolation because they exist in no Greek manuscripts prior to the 14th century with the Comma which is why many Bibles have removed the verse/Comma. To make it worse they don't even exist in your two oldest complete Bibles and no your one Prostestant author's opinion isn't enough to counter-act the scholarly atheist and Christian community which say otherwise.

https://www.gotquestions.org/Comma-Johanneum.html

^Even this Christian website which you use often Red to support your claims tells us it's an interpolation.

 

[lightseeker]

It's still inconsistent with the Old Testament though. Conflicting theology doesn't lend Christianity any epistemic merit! Just because we're used to seeing the elephant in the room now for centuries, doesn't mean mean the elephant can make itself at home!!!

Not nesessarily. The Jewish scriptures are closely tied to the Hebrew language. There are many names for God given in the OT but they are usually only translated as "God", or "the Lord". But in Hebrew there is Jehovah, Jehovah Elohim, Jehovah Sabaoth, El-Shadai, Elah, all different aspects of the unity of God.

 

[Kung Fu]

I love how Isaiah talks so specifically of the coming of Muhammad(pbuh)

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

The verses are an interpolation because they exist in no Greek manuscripts prior to the 14th century with the Comma which is why many Bibles have removed the verse/Comma. To make it worse they don't even exist in your two oldest complete Bibles and no your one Prostestant author's opinion isn't enough to counter-act the scholarly atheist and Christian community which say otherwise.

https://www.gotquestions.org/Comma-Johanneum.html

^Even this Christian website which you use often Red to support your claims tells us it's an interpolation.

Plenty of Christians I really like read the NIV. John Piper likes the ESV. We're still on the "same side" though a number of verses are needlessly called into doubt.

As to the "comma", the history of how that idea became embraced and the evidence against the current partly line on it is fascinating. I'm watching England vs Belgium at the moment so my response will have to wait ;-)

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

I love how Isaiah talks so specifically of the coming of Muhammad(pbuh)

Lol - you won't give up on "Muhammad in Isaiah 42" will you bruh?

 

[EpistemiX]

Not nesessarily. The Jewish scriptures are closely tied to the Hebrew language. There are many names for God given in the OT but they are usually only translated as "God", or "the Lord". But in Hebrew there is Jehovah, Jehovah Elohim, Jehovah Sabaoth, El-Shadai, Elah, all different aspects of the unity of God.

wrong, I actually studied Hebrew for a while, enough to know that the tetragrammatron just means "Oh He Is" and that's it! It is usually succeeded by a suffix like Elohim which means "the God (complete with the plurality of respect [im])" -- Ya-hova-Eloh-im it's just a statement of belief in One God.

Since you bought up Hebrew, the monotheistic concept of God in Hebrew is that he is "Ikhud" which means a "unique One" and further explained as follows: A "One without a second (or third since you're speaking of trinity)" and an "indivisible One" meaning, He (God) cannot be divided because it is beneath His majesty to do so. Trinty? No place for it. Sorry.

You're basically butchering Hebrew theology. Just thought you should know.

 

[Bacsi]

Something can have several qualities or aspects at once and still be united. A person has mind, emotions, physical personality - all of them are different and in their own sphere, and united in a single person. God can also be three at once.

Can't compare God to creation.

A person is her/his spirit. Mind and body are what we have, not what we are. It's a common mistake people make. A car and its onboard computer aren't the driver.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

wrong, I actually studied Hebrew for a while, enough to know that the tetragrammatron just means "Oh He Is" and that's it! It is usually succeeded by a suffix like Elohim which means "the God (complete with the plurality of respect [im])" -- Yahova-Eloh-im it's just a statement of belief in One God.

Since you bought up Hebrew, the monotheistic concept of God in Hebrew is that he is "Ikhud" which means a "unique One" and further explained as follows: A "One without a second (or third since you're speaking of trinity)" and an "indivisible One" meaning, He (God) cannot be divided because it is beneath His majesty to do so.

You're basically butchering Hebrew theology. Just thought you should know.

The Tetragrammaton, which is the four letter representation of the revealed name of God in Hebrew, was first written in an ancient form of Hebrew now referred to as Paleo Hebrew.

Paleo Hebrew, like other ancient written forms, is pictorial in nature.
This provides a meaning for words which is built up from pictorial symbols, which when combined express both a complete word and a combination of meanings.

The combined word for the Tetragrammaton – YHWH – is often translated into English as
“I Am who I Am” and expresses the eternal presence and identity of God, as well as other deep concepts as to His self-revealing nature.

When taken as individual Paleo Hebrew symbols however you get the following four representations:
Hand (Yodh)
Behold (He)
Nail (Waw)
Behold (He)

What is the significance of this?
When Jesus confronts Thomas after His resurrection He says these words to Him;
“Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.” John 20:27

What is Thomas’ response in John 20:28?
“Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!””

This is an amazing revelation given to Thomas that Jesus is the I Am – YHWH Himself – and the root written form of this, before crucifixion with nails was invented and before Jesus was born, was…

Hand Behold Nail Behold

http://the-emissary.me/2012/05/31/hand-behold-nail-behold/

 

[Bacsi]

The verses are an interpolation because they exist in no Greek manuscripts prior to the 14th century with the Comma which is why many Bibles have removed the verse/Comma. To make it worse they don't even exist in your two oldest complete Bibles and no your one Prostestant author's opinion isn't enough to counter-act the scholarly atheist and Christian community which say otherwise.

https://www.gotquestions.org/Comma-Johanneum.html

^Even this Christian website which you use often Red to support your claims tells us it's an interpolation.

In a sense, much of the New Testament is a form of "Comma Johanneum". Interpolation upon interpolation.

The true Jesus didn't teach a half of what he was made to teach by Christians.