Prophetic Expectations

Golden Age

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@Serveto:
"A word of advice in return, if I may, in recognition of the fact that, with your recent entry to the board, you haven't had much of a chance to interact with fellow participants and gain a history. @Red Sky at Morning is, in my estimation, a gentleman par excellence. In a perfect world of my own making, were I able to convene a round table of advisers looking for viable solutions on all sides while at the same time holding true to their own convictions, which table would necessarily include Christian diplomats and abassadors, he would be among them.

We live in an unusual era: the Eschaton is Immanentized, and the abstract, apocalyptic is daily headline news. That is one reason why I post more here, in the Religion and Spirituality sub-forum, than anywhere else. I am glad to see you return to the board, by the way, because it is refreshing, sometimes, to cut through the abstractions to see, and acknowledge, the so called facts on the ground. As you quite rightly point out, that needs to be done"

I note your sage advice and will remember it in my interactions with @Red Sky at Morning . . .
 

DesertRose

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@Karlysymon @Serveto @Red Sky at Morning @Orwell's mentor (and all our posters on this thread that I can not possibly name....apologies)
Greetings and TGIF
Please check out the video above. It is not eschatological but it gives you a good look at the Islamic world the positives and the negatives and where we need to go.
It is long but you will get a gist if you check out the first 30-40 minutes of the keynote speaker Dr. Tareq Suwaidan.(please skip to his talk)
@EpistemiX I think you will find this video interesting :)
@vigilante71 check the last question. I think you will find it interesting regarding the necessity of not mixing divisions in politics with religion.
 
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Red Sky at Morning

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@Karlysymon @Serveto @Red Sky at Morning @Orwell's mentor (and all our posters on this thread that I can not possibly name....apologies)
Greetings and TGIF
Please check out the video above. It is not eschatological but it gives you a good look at the Islamic world the positives and the negatives and where we need to go.
It is long but you will get a gist if you check out the first 30-40 minutes of the keynote speaker Dr. Tareq Suwaidan.(please skip to his talk)
@EpistemiX I think you will find this video interesting :)
I watched it, @DesertRose and found it very insightful. I could sense the strong cultural roots of the speaker and to a degree the frustration at the challenges of accomplishing this vision of Islam to make the world a happier place.

What I picked up on most was an understanding both of respect for teachers and those imparting knowledge. Respect in communication is another thread that came through.

I have always believed that communication begins with respect, which is why I don't really bother debating people who lack this trait. However... Respect can also be a barrier to confronting hard issues and uncomfortable truths if it becomes the cardinal virtue. Just my thoughts...

Anyway, interesting and thought provoking. I'm sure we will chat again soon.
 

vigilante71

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@vigilante71 check the last question. I think you will find it interesting regarding the necessity of not mixing divisions in politics with religion.
I watched the whole video and it was a really good speech. His ideas resonate with the things I see in the present Islamic world. I always had a problem with suppressing other religions in Islamic governments, and I think that's one of the things that will harm the impression of non-muslims (and muslims) about Islam. He is so right about traditional Islamic scholars being part of the resistance, some of them are so restricted in their ideas that see anything out of the boundaries they have drawn for themselves as a threat! That's just not wise. This was a huge blow to the initial attraction I felt about Islam in my teenage years, and it actually made me think twice before I found out that there are scholars who are not that insecure.
The vision he painted was quite interesting and I think Islamic world need moderate and knowledged scholars like him more than ever, but to revive such a dream we also need independent political leaders and people who are willing to give themselves to that cause, which are not easy to find nowadays. I'm not hopeless but I have to say I'm not as optimistic as him.
The political doctrine of Islam (or at least how it is practised today in some countries) could be seen as a double-edged sword; It's one of the aspects that make Islam more practical in real world but at the same time it could be used as a tool to harm the Muslim Ummah and humanity in general. The so-called Islamic governments could use the name of Islam for whatever unholy desire they have and that will affect the impression people have about Islam. Some people are not willing to go deeper and see this as a justification to dismiss Islam or religion altogether. It is actually partly happening here in Iran, and it is leading people (especially the youth and the not so religious people) to embrace more secular ideas. I think ruling an Islamic state is a very hard thing to do.
I liked how he stated three main resistance forces all of which are mostly within the Islamic world. That's contrary to what a lot of Muslim population think here in the middle east and they blame everything on the west, but I think not everything is their fault and we have to look into the mirror before blaming anyone else.
Indeed, Allah will not change the condition of a people until they change what is in themselves. (13:11)
And about the last question, he's right that Assad might not be the best political figure for Syrians, and they have the right to change him (without others interfering), but the problem is when foreigners help the rebels, they are signalling that they might want sth more than just toppling Assad. I think Syrian crisis is much more complicated than just overthrowing Assad.
Thanks for suggesting this post to me, I really enjoyed watching it.
 
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Forever Light

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There is no 3rd Temple mentioned anywhere in Scripture. In fact, it says this instead about the New Jerusalem:

King of kings' Bible, Revelation
21:2 And I John saw the Holy City, "New Jerusalem", coming DOWN from God OUT OF HEAVEN, prepared as a Bride adorned for her husband.
21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the Tabernacle of God [is] with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.
21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
21:5 And He that sat upon the Throne said, Behold, I make all things NEW. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are True and Faithful.

21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the Temple of it.
 
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DesertRose

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I watched it, @DesertRose and found it very insightful
Thank you Red for taking the time!

I liked how he stated three main resistance forces all of which are mostly within the Islamic world. That's contrary to what a lot of Muslim population think here in the middle east and they blame everything on the west, but I think not everything is their fault and we have to look into the mirror before blaming anyone else.
Indeed, Allah will not change the condition of a people until they change what is in themselves. (13:11)
And about the last question, he's right that Assad might not be the best political figure for Syrians, and they have the right to change him (without others interfering), but the problem is when foreigners help the rebels, they are signalling that they might want sth more than just toppling Assad. I think Syrian crisis is much more complicated than just overthrowing Assad.
Thanks for suggesting this post to me, I really enjoyed watching it.
Thank you sis for your thought provoking post! In the Q AND A the answer I was looking at perhaps second last was a reiteration about how some governments are trying to exploit religion to promote their political differences with Iran. It is important that Muslims do not fall for the ramped up, on steroids political rhetoric coming from certain quarters. Moreover, any ideas about sanctioning hajj for anyone is an outrage and has never been done before.
What an unholy alliance Saudi/UAE/Israel/US.
 
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rainerann

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There is no 3rd Temple mentioned anywhere in Scripture. In fact, it says this instead about the New Jerusalem:

King of kings' Bible, Revelation
21:2 And I John saw the Holy City, "New Jerusalem", coming DOWN from God OUT OF HEAVEN, prepared as a Bride adorned for her husband.
21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the Tabernacle of God [is] with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.
21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
21:5 And He that sat upon the Throne said, Behold, I make all things NEW. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are True and Faithful.

21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the Temple of it.
I'm not sure where you are going with this, but what would you consider the abomination of desolation? Obviously, it is only speculation to suggest that this is referring to a 3rd temple as well, but that is where the reference comes from.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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I'm not sure where you are going with this, but what would you consider the abomination of desolation? Obviously, it is only speculation to suggest that this is referring to a 3rd temple as well, but that is where the reference comes from.
There are some very unusual implications I have only recently come across...

Daniel 12

11And from the time that the daily [sacrifice]* shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.12Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. 13But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Matthew 24

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand).

This place where the sacrifice takes place could mean a rebuilt Temple, or our own bodies (intended to be temples of the Holy Spirit).

The Temple may be defiled by a literal unholy offering, or the body may be defiled through receiving the Mark of the Beast.

On this second possibility, I started to wonder whether there was not something very sinister about IXXI...

Or it might be both.

*Temple offering suspended or maybe Rapture of the Church.
 

Karlysymon

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It is an interesting study trying to determine who the lost tribes were (if you don't mind not getting definitive answers!)
You've seen right through me. I always want my answers definitive. It helps me sleep better at night.:) Cryptic hints, beating around the bush, et al, that stuff doesn't really work for me.

I would say that if a unique (and often discussed) event occurred which led to the "Evangelical" (and not just the American) voice all but disappearing, the balance of power in the US would swing very hard indeed away from support for Israel. Under such circumstances, new and creative solutions to avoid all out war may appear very attractive to all parties.
I don't know if that would happen because the hour is late in this game.
There are some very unusual implications I have only recently come across...

Daniel 12

11And from the time that the daily [sacrifice]* shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.12Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. 13But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Matthew 24

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand).

This place where the sacrifice takes place could mean a rebuilt Temple, or our own bodies (intended to be temples of the Holy Spirit).

The Temple may be defiled by a literal unholy offering, or the body may be defiled through receiving the Mark of the Beast.

On this second possibility, I started to wonder whether there was not something very sinister about IXXI...

Or it might be both.

*Temple offering suspended or maybe Rapture of the Church.
70AD. Titus.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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You've seen right through me. I always want my answers definitive. It helps me sleep better at night.:) Cryptic hints, beating around the bush, et al, that stuff doesn't really work for me.


I don't know if that would happen because the hour is late in this game.


70AD. Titus.
I agree in part, but to say that once Titus had done what he did, only the preterist view would suggest that was the end of it...
 

Karlysymon

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How the hell can anyone address issues in the Middle East with people that have a tendency to disappear into the rabbit holes of their own [very peculiar] eschatology?
a reiteration about how some governments are trying to exploit religion to promote their political differences with Iran. It is important that Muslims do not fall for the ramped up, on steroids political rhetoric coming from certain quarters.
I think that when it comes to the Middle East, the playbook changes abit. The Council on Foreign Relations opens up it membership to religious figures, for a reason ofcourse, with their religion and foreign policy program .
Richard Haass, the president, had this to say:

Two, we’ve also got to educate. And I think you’re [religious leaders] in some ways—who better to educate? If you look at the numbers of people who enter into houses of worship in this country every week, far more than enter into schools. So you’re in some ways the principal educators in this—in this country. And who better to explain the connections between what goes on out there and what happens here, in both directions—the good that we can do in the world and also, in some ways, the ill that the world can do us.

So he does recognize the power that the minister wields. Now Hillary, as secretary of state, had this to say:

"Thank you very much, Richard, and I am delighted to be here in these new headquarters. I have been often to, I guess, the ‘mother ship’ in New York City, but it’s good to have an outpost of the Council right here down the street from the State Department. We get a lot of advice from the Council, so this will mean I won’t have as far to go to be told what we should be doing."

So, basically, you have a thinktank that comes up with policies that are adopted by government(s). Some of these policies aren't beneficial to the average person but are, to the higher-ups. So you have to figure out a way to sell those policies across the board. And since, the minister wields great power, s/he, as a CFR member is tasked with dissemination, in a way that will cause minimal resistance. Inotherwords, policy becomes prophecy. This is how we end up with religious leaders who are very cozy with the political establishment and whose beliefs are basically in line with said establishment's foreign policy (notably). So , this is easy to demonstrate in the Christian world but what I want, is evidence of the above in Islam (DesertRose, you can help me out). Influential Imams or scholars, whose religious beliefs are, strangely enough a mirror of America's foreign policy. Because I know they are there. I just don't know who they are. I'll give an example but, only then, I think, can we understand if the Middle East will ever be tumult-free, regardless of UN resolutions, treaties, etc.

"Feisal Abdul Rauf, the American imam who conceived the controversial “Ground Zero Mosque” project, [demonstrates this fact]. Conservative blogger Alyssa A. Lappen describes Rauf’s father, Dr. Muhammad Abdul Rauf as “ an Egyptian contemporary of Muslim Brotherhood (MB) founder Hassan al-Banna” (“Feisal Abdul Rauf”). Dr. Muhammad Abdul Rauf, says Lappen, was a student and teacher at Al-Azhar University “beside Hassan al-Banna, perpetuating the pious family tradition of radicalism” (ibid). When the Egyptian crackdown on the Muslim Brotherhood took place in 1948, Dr. Rauf fled the country (ibid). His son, Feisal, was born in Kuwait (ibid).

With Feisal Abdul Rauf, one finds a modern manifestation of the symbiotic relationship between the Islamists and the imperialists that began with Jamal Eddine al-Afghani and his pro-British pan-Islam movement. In 2005, he participated in the Independent Task Force on U.S. Policy Toward Reform in the Arab World (“Bipartisan Task Force Endorses Democracy Promotion”). The task force was sponsored by the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) (ibid). The imam has developed a cozy relationship with the CFR. At the website of the Cordoba Initiative, an organization founded by Feisal in 2004, the imam’s biography states that he “has appeared regularly at the Council on Foreign Relations” (“Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf”)."


So.....



@Red Sky at Morning

I believe it (matt 24) was meant to span the 1st century, down to our time.
 

DesertRose

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"Feisal Abdul Rauf, the American imam who conceived the controversial “Ground Zero Mosque” project, [demonstrates this fact]. Conservative blogger Alyssa A. Lappen describes Rauf’s father, Dr. Muhammad Abdul Rauf as “ an Egyptian contemporary of Muslim Brotherhood (MB) founder Hassan al-Banna” (“Feisal Abdul Rauf”). Dr. Muhammad Abdul Rauf, says Lappen, was a student and teacher at Al-Azhar University “beside Hassan al-Banna, perpetuating the pious family tradition of radicalism” (ibid). When the Egyptian crackdown on the Muslim Brotherhood took place in 1948, Dr. Rauf fled the country (ibid). His son, Feisal, was born in Kuwait (ibid).

With Feisal Abdul Rauf, one finds a modern manifestation of the symbiotic relationship between the Islamists and the imperialists that began with Jamal Eddine al-Afghani and his pro-British pan-Islam movement. In 2005, he participated in the Independent Task Force on U.S. Policy Toward Reform in the Arab World (“Bipartisan Task Force Endorses Democracy Promotion”). The task force was sponsored by the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) (ibid). The imam has developed a cozy relationship with the CFR. At the website of the Cordoba Initiative, an organization founded by Feisal in 2004, the imam’s biography states that he “has appeared regularly at the Council on Foreign Relations” (“Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf”)."
Interesting stuff Karly! I remember everyone was wondering why he was pushing for the so called 'ground zero Mosque' at the time.
It just seemed so counter productive and divisive.
Despite the fact that I know that the proposed mosque was not to be on 'ground zero' but just in the same neighborhood. (Those right wing haters raised a big stink for nothing!)
However, this explains it. He is with them a CFR candidate, another tool in their game.

So , this is easy to demonstrate in the Christian world but what I want, is evidence of the above in Islam (DesertRose, you can help me out). Influential Imams or scholars, whose religious beliefs are, strangely enough a mirror of America's foreign policy. Because I know they are there. I just don't know who they are. I'll give an example but, only then, I think, can we understand if the Middle East will ever be tumult-free, regardless of UN resolutions, treaties, etc.
Apologies, my knowledge on this subject is quite limited. However, I will give it a go.
I remember during the Egyptian elections for example after Mubarak resigned people discussing how the western elite wanted to float 'their man' as PM. However, he was accused of corruption.

Post-revolution exile and corruption conviction[edit]
On 31 January 2011, as part of Hosni Mubarak's responses to the 2011 Egyptian protests, The government of Prime Minister Ahmed Nazif resigned and Boutros-Ghali was replaced as Minister of Finance by Samir Radwan.[1][2][3] Then, on 4 February 2011, the IMF reported that Boutros-Ghali had resigned the Chairmanship of the International Monetary and Financial Committee (IMFC).[5]

"On 11 February 2011, just prior to Mubarak's resignation, the VIP lounge at Cairo Airport opened to accommodate Boutros-Ghali and his wife before they flew to Lebanon[6] while other ex-regime officials, including Mubarak himself, were targeted with travel bans, asset freezes, and even arrests. Boutros-Ghali was accused of corruption and an Interpol international arrest warrant was issued.[7][8]"
(People were aware about the forces he was aligned with.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Youssef_Boutros_Ghali

These candidates for the elite are usually apparent to patriots in most Muslims countries.
Recently ex-prime minister of Malaysia Najib was linked to Goldman Sachs and lost an election to a popular patriot Prime Minister Mahatir due to corruption charges. Prime Minister Mahatir is now the oldest prime minister in office. (Some American commentators noted this event with the wish that this can happen in the US, perhaps no one should vote in your next election to send a clear message against corruption?).
The Pakistani analyst Zaid Hamid discusses and names these stooges in Pakistan.They are apparent to patriots because they always move against a country's best interests.
These people are not as well received in Muslims countries and at the imam level I would say at this moment not at all. Thanks to the over interference from the government in the affairs of the mosques and universities.(However, I should say these imams usually work within a state sanctioned mandate and most of the population just accepts them and their state given addresses and decisions). They are not usually popular with the religious youth.
(Another example at the imam level.)
In Egypt they have 2 groups of Al Azhar scholars the official recognized and the unofficial non state sanctioned ones and people trust the latter..
Ultimately only a trusted person who has been on the ground in the Middle East or the Muslim world will have a better outcome.
I do not think the ME will be tumult free they are not in charge of their countries especially the Gulf states.
Edit: Qatar is the only Gulf state that is trying to keep peace and good relations in that region and with an predominantly indp. foreign policy.
Nations like Malaysia, Pakistan, Sudan and Turkey among others, however, are fighting for their survival.
Interestingly enough, the imams that 'speak truth to power' so to speak become popular cross culturally and are uploaded on social media everyone is proud of them because the stakes are high that they will be arrested or killed.

ATM the only president that has captured the imagination of the masses is President Erdogan. (Despite Turkey's problematic NATO affiliation or western perception of his moves.)
Video below is against the elite games or chessboard:

Notice how he is well received in Sudan and liked by many Muslim populations due to stance on Palestine and Gaza:

Here he is speaking to the scholars sunnis, shia and others saying this is not the time for sectarianism but the time for peace.

Against the UN
ps look forward to seeing the Vice video, thanks.
 
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Karlysymon

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Thanks! Yeah, you have to wonder what the real intentions were, for the mosque. But he can't be the only one. There's got to be a list (CFR) somewhere. I'll go through them. But I'm confused. Are you saying Erdogan is a good guy? What about the Incirlik airbase and his son selling Isis oil or that episode with Fetullah Gulen (coup attempt). Anything on Gulen btw?
 

rainerann

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There are some very unusual implications I have only recently come across...Daniel 12

11And from the time that the daily [sacrifice]* shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.12Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. 13But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Matthew 24

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand).

This place where the sacrifice takes place could mean a rebuilt Temple, or our own bodies (intended to be temples of the Holy Spirit).

The Temple may be defiled by a literal unholy offering, or the body may be defiled through receiving the Mark of the Beast.

On this second possibility, I started to wonder whether there was not something very sinister about IXXI...

Or it might be both.

*Temple offering suspended or maybe Rapture of the Church.
@Red Sky at Morning said "The Temple may be defiled by a literal unholy offering, or the body may be defiled through receiving the Mark of the Beast."

Very interesting consideration Red.
 

Forever Light

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Obviously, it is only speculation to suggest that this is referring to a 3rd temple as well, but that is where the reference comes from.
Thank you and understood. I was thinking along the lines of verses like these:

Acts
7:47 But Solomon built him an house.
7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
7:49 Heaven [is] My throne, and earth [is] My footstool: what house will ye build Me? saith the Lord: or what [is] the place of My rest?
7:50 Hath not My hand made all these things?

And

1 Corinthians
3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
3:17 If any man defile the Temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the Temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.
3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
3:20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are worthless.

And therefore, them still wanting to build another Temple (made with hands) shows how they are thinking backwards.

But the poster stunt seems obviously meant to try and see if they can stir up further strife, tension and ultimately more war.
 
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DesertRose

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Are you saying Erdogan is a good guy? What about the Incirlik airbase and his son selling Isis oil or that episode with Fetullah Gulen (coup attempt). Anything on Gulen btw?
That is why I prefaced it with this disclaimer.
(Despite Turkey's problematic NATO affiliation or western perception of his moves.)
In this day and age all these people in politics are compromised to varying degrees.

Having said that we can see which of the political figures are pro Middle Eastern wars and which aren't and they should be acknowledged for that.
ps. Found this on the Gulen movement and CFR.
https://www.dailysabah.com/politics/2017/10/23/council-on-foreign-relations-to-host-senior-gulenist-in-closed-door-event
Council on Foreign Relations to host senior Gülenist in closed-door event
 
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rainerann

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Thank you and understood. I was thinking along the lines of verses like these:

Acts
7:47 But Solomon built him an house.
7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
7:49 Heaven [is] My throne, and earth [is] My footstool: what house will ye build Me? saith the Lord: or what [is] the place of My rest?
7:50 Hath not My hand made all these things?

And

1 Corinthians
3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
3:17 If any man defile the Temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the Temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.
3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
3:20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are worthless.

And therefore, them still wanting to build another Temple (made with hands) shows how they are thinking backwards.

But the poster stunt seems obviously meant to try and see if they can stir up further strife, tension and ultimately more war.
Okay I see where you were going. Interesting.
 

Karlysymon

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Having said that we can see which of the political figures are pro Middle Eastern wars and which aren't and they should be acknowledged for that.
ps. Found this on the Gulen movement and CFR.
https://www.dailysabah.com/politics/2017/10/23/council-on-foreign-relations-to-host-senior-gulenist-in-closed-door-event
Council on Foreign Relations to host senior Gülenist in closed-door event
Nice find!! If you dig further, you'll find more people, probably some of your favorites. On an unrelated (religious) note, Steve Piezcenik is a member.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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I don't think I have posted up the "big picture" of what I think the Bible teaches will happen during the final seven years, so just for completeness (and not saying I think all other Christians share this perspective) I include it here.

 
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